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Author | Topic: Thank You Adam Smith. | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
jar Member (Idle past 421 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
The problem was that the ideas in your initial post were almost all wrong, you made no effort to defend them, when the absurdity of the OP was pointed out to you you simply retreated into and even more absurd moral outrage and then tried to defend the idea that you were going to be free from a system you never demonstrated existed or explained how or why such a tactic would be reasonable or desirable.
Now you have the chutzpah to come back and post something like:
I GUESS I'M JUST TRYING TO SAY THAT THIS POST WASN'T ABOUT YOUR DEAD THEORIES THAT HOLD NO IMPORTANCE IN THE EYES OF GOD, AND THANK YOU ALL FOR SUCKING ME INTO IT, AND BRINGING ME DOWN WITH YOU INTO THE FIERY PITS OF MEANINGLESSNESS, MEDIOCRITY, AND MINDLESSNESS. A fine rant! Well, perhaps fine is a little strong. A mediocre rant. And you are right, your posts have been fun. Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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nwr Member Posts: 6412 From: Geneva, Illinois Joined: Member Rating: 4.5 |
Can't you see that economic theory has no bearing on reality, it's an illusion, open your eyes.
Can't you see that your own idealism has no bearing on reality?
I GUESS I'M JUST TRYING TO SAY THAT THIS POST WASN'T ABOUT YOUR DEAD THEORIES THAT HOLD NO IMPORTANCE IN THE EYES OF GOD, AND THANK YOU ALL FOR SUCKING ME INTO IT, AND BRINGING ME DOWN WITH YOU INTO THE FIERY PITS OF MEANINGLESSNESS, MEDIOCRITY, AND MINDLESSNESS. You don't deserve me, you don't deserve my thoughts, you don't deserve any of what I can tell you.
That's not exactly the way to win friends and influence people
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joshua221  Inactive Member |
But my ideas were absolutely true, all of those things exist because of this system. I see it plain as day.
It's so screwed up. Would you like me to prove that
competition fatalities rat-race nicotine in cigarettes the corporate money-making world money business as usual the have-nots the struggling Social Darwinism Industrialization mediocrity ghettoes slums retirement at 65 meaningless occupation jobs slavery misleading the entire world World Wars killing for oil Jingoism Imperialism borders Nationalism September 11th terrorism the primitive workings of the human mind automobiles and thank you for pollution not really living the suburbs the American Dream conformity glass cielings Capitalism the System Don't exist because of the perpetuation of the ideas of Adam Smith. And the perpetuation of ideas like those of Adam Smith, and the ideas of economics, and competition, and material gain? It is so obvious that these "things" have been put in place because of human nature, and men who focus there lives on what is unimportant. It is so obvious that blame cannot be put on one man, Adam Smith. This was of course not my point. I don't know. I just go so angry with these posters here. They didn't get what I was getting at, and it all ended with the questioning of my credentials, which was really all too funny.
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joshua221  Inactive Member |
quote: No, it does, but the man-made systems have decieved you. The way I put it, it sounds like Conspiracy Theory stuff, but it's not. Edited by prophex, : No reason given.
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nwr Member Posts: 6412 From: Geneva, Illinois Joined: Member Rating: 4.5 |
It's so screwed up.
Do you really believe that live was better, more meaningful, for the noble savage. (see also the wiki entry)
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jar Member (Idle past 421 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
I don't know. I just go so angry with these posters here. They didn't get what I was getting at, and it all ended with the questioning of my credentials, which was really all too funny. They don't get what you were getting at because...? The failure is not on their end prophex. You wrote the OP. The statements in the OP were simply wrong. You blamed it all on Adam Smith. Charley don't get mad at others for your failure. You wrote a lousy OP. You had a chance to revise it so that perhaps it reflected what you really wanted to discuss, but you decided not to take that route. The job of getting your ideas across is all yours. No one else can do that. When you start a thread with a rant and a false premise how can you expect to sell your idea? Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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Quetzal Member (Idle past 5899 days) Posts: 3228 Joined: |
But my ideas were absolutely true, all of those things exist because of this system. I see it plain as day. It's so screwed up. I think all anyone's really asking for is some kind of discussion rather than a list of things wrong (or that you think are wrong) with society. "Rage against the machine" is all very well and good, but if you want to convince people about your views, it is probably better to actually present them. Just a suggestion. Oh, and implying people are ignorant or blind or whatever just because they don't immediately "see" the same things you do or instantly acquiesce to your points probably isn't really a good tactic, either. It's much more convincing if you try and explain your reasoning. Perhaps it's not quite as obvious to others as it apparently is to you.
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joshua221  Inactive Member |
I want to take that course.
If I ever did respond to sidelined, I would have written "Rousseau's idea of a common will and understanding within a society to do what is right." That's crazy you wrote that. He titled it the noble savage, his idea of what life should be like right? I need to take out his writing on society, I've read only shortened versions of his works dealing with education I believe. Emile, that's the keeper. Edited by prophex, : No reason given.
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joshua221  Inactive Member |
I didn't blame it all on Adam Smith, I simply borrowed his name and reputation.
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joshua221  Inactive Member |
I think you're right, I should have supported my statement with evidence, but I didn't think it needed proving. In the beginning, I thought most would agree. Maybe this piece wasn't meant to be discussed. As jar said.
It's just a statement that is hard for me to explain. You know how I have been saying how it's not about Adam Smith and stuff. Maybe it's not clear, I'm not sure. It's like a poem I guess like cartman said.
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Taz Member (Idle past 3319 days) Posts: 5069 From: Zerus Joined: |
Kuresu made some rather simple and valid points that have been ignored for quite long enough.
Kuresu writes:
I must say, you do a great job of blaming Adam Smith for a bunch of shit he's not responsible for.The competition's been arond forever--ever since we've had tribes competing against one another. nicotene is naturally found in tobaccoo, and was already being used in the 1600s--why do you think it was a cash crop (for Virginia) under the mercantilist system? money--ever since we switched from the bargaining system, we've had money. I mean, even Hammurabi's code deals with debt and credit, and we know they had money from the this--"if you don't have the cash, you gotta pay with grain" (paraphrased) there have always been have-nots--ever since we've had greed. I admit, social darwinism was bad--but so is this current capitalism--robber barons and Exxon-mobil was not what Smith was advocating industrialization--I don't know how that relates to capitalism. Care to elaborate? mediocrity has been here for a long while, and is actually not advocated by capitalism. why? if you make a so-so product, and someone else makes a better quality product, which are you going to buy? If you say the mediocre one, it is only becuase you do not care for quality. while you're blaming ghettoes on capitalism, be sure to blame Hitler too. Better yet, blame the ghettoes on the greedy robber barons who abused the capitalist system. aren't slums the same thing as ghettoes? You know, at least we get to retire at 65 and enjoy life afterwards--want to go back to a time when living to 65 was rare? Like in Smith's time? We've always had jobs--ever since something needed to be done. the first civilization, Sumer, had jobs. again, seeing as how you equate jobs with meaningless occupation, blame the damn sumerians. slavery was well in existence before capitalism. Again, the sumerians had slaves. blame them for the idea. I'm not sure which misleads the world more--communism, fanatic crackpots, idealists, or capitalistism? On the point of the world wars--I defintely disagree. WWI was the result of a crazed ruler desparate to prove Europe of germany, and his own, might. WWII was the direct result of the Versailles Treaty--it's unfairness and the unwillingness to defend it. The first we killed for oil was in WWI--without it the war would've been lost by britain and france before we stepped in. Jingoism is a result of imperialism, see below You want to tell me that Hammurabi, Alexander, the Romans, the Egyptians, the Hittites, and many other ancient and classical civilization's weren't in the least bit imperial, and wanted to expand their empire? We've had borders since we first had city-states--again, blame the sumerians. Nationalism is not the result of Capitalism--it is, in fact, one of the results of raison d'etat. You know, I personally blame Osama for 9/11, but whatever. Terrorism has been around for a long time--far longer than has capitalism. I would blame your God for making our minds so primitive, not something that didn't actually create them. (in my case, I blame evolution for the screwed up body I've got) Don't see what capitalism has to do with automobiles and pollution. care to elaborate? Something tells me you don't mean to thank Smith for not living, as he did in fact live. If you blame him for the "false" live we all lead, its our choice to follow the "false" lives. I happen to think mine's real, but then, "I think not" (oops. do I disappear now) suburbs are a direct result of the American dream, and we've had the american dream before most farmers were introduced to capitalism. It is, instead, a direct result of our greed. I'm not sure what conformity and capitalism share, care to elaborate? as to those glass ceilings--I like my sky lightsyou know, it's a good thing there glass--we can break through them. Now, had you made them out of steel and other really strong materials, we'd be deep in trouble. Oh wait, good thing we've got capitalism--who knows what's on the other side, right? It could be an economic goldmine--and whoever gets there first wins. sorry, no ceilings, not where there's money to be made. At least you do thank him for the one thing he is directly responsible for--capitalism. What system? You mean we live in the matrix!? shit, we need neo, now. there's always been a system--bargaining, mercantilism, communism, capitalism, and then the governments. Might as well lay the blame at everybody's feet. Point put simple--quit blaming the wrong guy. Or, actually do something about it if you think it's so bad.
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Quetzal Member (Idle past 5899 days) Posts: 3228 Joined: |
I think you're right, I should have supported my statement with evidence, but I didn't think it needed proving. In the beginning, I thought most would agree. Ah, well. You'd be surprised at what people disagree on. There were a fair selection of items on your list that I would disagree with, in fact (assuming the list you posted represented "bad" things). However, I have to confess I'm very disinclined to argue about them without you at least putting down some initial reasoning on each. Never take agreement for granted - this is a debate board, after all. If you want to convince people with the force of your argument, you need to present it in a persuasive fashion. Not everyone is going to see the world the way you do.
You know how I have been saying how it's not about Adam Smith and stuff. Maybe it's not clear, I'm not sure. It's like a poem I guess like cartman said. Yeah, I kind of took it that way, seeing as none of the items on your list can actually be laid at Smith's doorstep. In spite of the popular, grossly over-simplified exposure most people get, many of his ideas are actually quite good - and often very different from what is usually encapsulated. I found Wealth to be a fascinating read - even if I don't necessarily agree with everything. Rather than rejecting it wholesale, it might be worth the effort to wade through his writings. Just a thought.
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jar Member (Idle past 421 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
When you look at "Wealth" in relation to the period when it was written, it was amazing.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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joshua221  Inactive Member |
Yeah, I kind of took it that way, seeing as none of the items on your list can actually be laid at Smith's doorstep. In spite of the popular, grossly over-simplified exposure most people get, many of his ideas are actually quite good - and often very different from what is usually encapsulated. I found Wealth to be a fascinating read - even if I don't necessarily agree with everything. Rather than rejecting it wholesale, it might be worth the effort to wade through his writings. Just a thought. Thanks, I think you're right, and I might read it. Although I stick to my views concerning economics. From what CK wrote about it, it made me want to never read it. He made it sound lame I guess.
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joshua221  Inactive Member |
I think I responded to much of his post.
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