Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 66 (9078 total)
137 online now:
Tangle (1 member, 136 visitors)
Newest Member: harveyspecter
Post Volume: Total: 895,082 Year: 6,194/6,534 Month: 387/650 Week: 157/278 Day: 25/30 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Buzsaw's Belief Statement
ringo
Member
Posts: 19745
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 4 of 59 (343577)
08-26-2006 12:05 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Buzsaw
08-25-2006 10:58 PM


Hi Buz,

A few things:

I have attended many churches, all 1st day ones such as Baptist, Christian & Missionary Alliance, undenominational Bible churches....

Me too. I'm wondering where you stand on The FallTM and Original Sin, since I don't recall ever hearing those terms in those churches.

More needs to happen before this event.

If more "needs" to happen before the rapture, how can you know the timescale of those events?
That is, how can you "predict" that the "end" is coming "soon"?

Most do not believe that antichrist will be a Muslim as I do....

I'm curious as to how long you've believed that the antiChrist will be a Muslim.

It seems to me that nobody gave "the Muslims" a second thought until the Ayatollahs took over Iran.
Was your "conclusion" foresight or hindsight?

(By the way, you can avoid having two number 9s by using a dBCode list.) :)

I am however a YCC, which is a Young Creature Creationist, meaning all creatures were created roughly six milleniums ago.

I don't see any significant difference.
"All creatures were created roughly six milleniums ago" is a non-starter just as YECism is.


Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Buzsaw, posted 08-25-2006 10:58 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by Buzsaw, posted 08-26-2006 10:43 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19745
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 11 of 59 (343926)
08-27-2006 11:25 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by Buzsaw
08-26-2006 10:43 PM


Buzsaw writes:

I've heard a lot about the fall and the original sin in the churches which I've attended for any significant length of time.

Hmm... I never did. Must have dozed off on every single occasion, or something. :)

However I never heard the fall referenced as FallTM. I know this term is used in reference to other things as well but do not know what it's significance is.

It's a joke, intended to poke fun at how silly the concept of a FallTM is.

As for my belief of the fall and the original sin, I take the whole enchilada as written, so all you need do is read the account, all of it and there you have my answer to your question.

So you agree that the idea of a FallTM is nonsensical and the idea of original sin is a cop-out.

(I don't know if there's ever been a real discussion of the FallTM during my time at EvC. FallistsTM tend to run away from Bible discussions as if the DevilTM himself was chasing them.)

The more prominent Islam emerged in recent decades, the more I became convince of the antichrist connection. For most of my life however, I never considered this hypothesy.

That's what I thought. ;)

In two hundred years, when the Himmelfarbians come to prominence, I suppose Bible "prophecy" will demonize them instead.

The difference is that I only have the creatures as young whereas YEC's generally have the whole universe as young.

The problem is with the "young" part - it completely fails to accept reality. We can see the reality of an old universe and old creatures just by looking at the evidence. That's why a "young" scenario of any kind is a complete non-starter.

That, imo, is just nutty thinking and leaves God with nothing around him and nothing to do except for the last six milleniums.

According to Genesis, God has only "worked" for six days of His life. :)


Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by Buzsaw, posted 08-26-2006 10:43 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by Buzsaw, posted 08-27-2006 11:32 PM ringo has not replied
 Message 16 by Buzsaw, posted 08-30-2006 11:03 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19745
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 17 of 59 (345315)
08-31-2006 12:23 AM
Reply to: Message 16 by Buzsaw
08-30-2006 11:03 PM


Buzsaw writes:

If you can agree that Adam's original sin and the resulting curse by God on him, his wife, the plants and Satan, et al equals fall....

No, I certainly can't agree to that.

Whether you choose to accept the account as historical is another matter.

I do accept the account as "historical" - in the sense that it's an explanation for why things are the way they are. It's the status quo, not a "fall".

In two hundred years, when the Himmelfarbians come to prominence, I suppose Bible "prophecy" will demonize them instead.

How does that diminish the significance of the Islam/antichrist hypothesis?

In the same way that your hypothesis diminishes the Napoleon hypothesis - by making it totally obsolete. Two hundred years from now, the fulfillment of prophecy will still not be complete and the "Muslim menace" will have been forgotten.

I don't accept the dating methods of the creatures....

Unfortunately, that damages your credibility in other areas. If you had done your homework, you would know that the "young creatures" hypothesis is false.

So how can we trust the homework you've done on prophecy?

Imo, for you to say he's done nothing since makes no sense atol.

Context, my man. :)

You said:

quote:
The difference is that I only have the creatures as young whereas YEC's generally have the whole universe as young. That, imo, is just nutty thinking and leaves God with nothing around him and nothing to do except for the last six milleniums. Message 7

You're the one who claimed that YEC leaves God with "nothing to do". I only pointed out that that's what Genesis says. I didn't make any claims for the whole Bible.


Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by Buzsaw, posted 08-30-2006 11:03 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by Buzsaw, posted 08-31-2006 10:30 AM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19745
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 19 of 59 (345400)
08-31-2006 10:54 AM
Reply to: Message 18 by Buzsaw
08-31-2006 10:30 AM


You go from:

... that's what the text wording says plain and simple.

to:

... the curse clearly implies a fall.

Which is it? Is there a "clear" implication of a fall?
Or does the text wording say plainly and simply that there was a fall?

The curse lowered the status and life quality of mankind.

As I said, the story explains the status and life quality of mankind. To me, it doesn't mean there was a change. The "curse" is the status quo, which has always been.

But, as I have said in other threads, I find it odd that anybody would think a gain of the knowledge of good and evil could be a "fall". I think it's a fine trade off for a little hard work, pain in childbirth, etc.

A gain in knowledge is a "climb" to any but those who prefer ignorance. :)

... in 200 years the memace will be history. That's because the end times events will have ushered in the Biblical prophesied millenial messianic kingdom.

You're a little too cocky about pinning down the date - sign of a false prophet. Remind me not to stand too close to you in a thunderstrom. ;)

You're shabily spun up strawman doesn't cut the mustard.

I leave the mustard-cutting judgement to the intelligent members of the board. If you want to crow about substance, provide some. :)


Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by Buzsaw, posted 08-31-2006 10:30 AM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by Buzsaw, posted 09-01-2006 12:43 AM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19745
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 21 of 59 (345617)
09-01-2006 1:14 AM
Reply to: Message 20 by Buzsaw
09-01-2006 12:43 AM


Buzsaw writes:

Adam and eve fell from the easy life status to laborers.

It's not a "fall" from a life of sloth to the dignity of honest labour.

They both fell from imortality to mortality.

There is no indication that they ever had immortality to lose.

How can you possibly seriously argue that all of the above and more were the status quo from what they previously enjoyed?

What they previously enjoyed? They were layabouts. :D

The knowledge of good and evil gave them worth.

Knowledge does not necessarily do anything for the status of anyone regarding anything in life.

"Status" has nothing to do with it. Knowledge (and maturity) has inherent value.

I assemble all the data and go with it for the hypothesis as they do in science.

Now that's funny, :laugh:

You ignore all the evidence about dating and you have the gall to compare your methods with science. :laugh:


Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by Buzsaw, posted 09-01-2006 12:43 AM Buzsaw has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by Archer Opteryx, posted 09-02-2006 2:50 AM ringo has not replied

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19745
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 35 of 59 (346221)
09-03-2006 11:39 AM
Reply to: Message 33 by Buzsaw
09-02-2006 6:09 PM


Re: Brief And Boring?
Buzsaw writes:

Only God knows what they and their descendents would've accomplised for the Kingdom Of God, had they been obedient.

What could they possibly "accomplish" in a "perfect" world?

Why would the "kingdom of God" need their "accomplishments"?


Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by Buzsaw, posted 09-02-2006 6:09 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by Buzsaw, posted 09-03-2006 11:30 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19745
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 37 of 59 (346319)
09-03-2006 11:47 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by Buzsaw
09-03-2006 11:30 PM


Re: Brief And Boring?
Buzsaw writes:

God desires fellowship with his beings as the walks in the garden with them. Now there's none.

Speak for yourself. :)

They dressed the beautiful garden....

That pretty much shoots down the argument that there was a "change" when they had to work for a living, doesn't it?


Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC

This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by Buzsaw, posted 09-03-2006 11:30 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by Buzsaw, posted 09-06-2006 9:49 AM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19745
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 40 of 59 (346964)
09-06-2006 12:11 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by Buzsaw
09-06-2006 9:49 AM


Re: Brief And Boring?
Buzsaw writes:

No more daily walks in the garden with men....

And yet His covenant with Israel included:

quote:
Lev 26:12 And I will walk among you, and will be your God, and ye shall be my people.

Another way of putting it:

quote:
Mic 6:8 He hath showed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?

"Walking in His ways", "walking before Him", etc. is one of the most common metaphors in the Bible.

No change. No fall. :)

No sweat of the brow kind of hard labor....

quote:
Gen 2:15 And the LORD God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it.

What do you suppose "dressing it and keeping it" entailed?

-------------

Recap: Man went from walking with God to walking with God - only now the choice is his own. And he went from tending a garden to tending a garden - only now the responsibility is his own.

Sounds like a promotion, not a fall. :)


Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by Buzsaw, posted 09-06-2006 9:49 AM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by Buzsaw, posted 09-06-2006 9:14 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19745
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 43 of 59 (347152)
09-06-2006 10:51 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by Buzsaw
09-06-2006 9:14 PM


Re: Apples and Oranges
Buzsaw writes:

It wasn't like in the garden when he actually in some form or another walked beside you and spoke audibly with you in a beautiful garden day in and day out.

So you can't make a case for the "fall" without making up stuff that ain't in the Bible, eh? :)

Let's see what it actually says, shall we?

How many times did God talk to Adam before the "fall"?

Once:

quote:
Gen 2:16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

How many times did He talk to Eve?

None.

How many times did He walk with Adam and Eve in the garden before the "fall"?

None.

The first mention of God walking in the garden is:

quote:
Gen 3:8 And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden.

which is after they ate the fruit (and notice that God was alone).

So it seems that God's relationship with mankind was much more intimate after the supposed "fall".

What do you suppose "dressing it and keeping it" entailed?

Well, they ate of the fruit of the trees so it wasn't for food.

Um... there are still fruit trees around now, aren't there? Where's the change?

I think of it as like a retired one who loves to garden, arranging things to suit and enjoying every minute of it.

I remember reading a story titled Never Worked and Never Will:

Once upon a time there was a toymaker. From sunup to sundown he made toys, and often continued late into the night by lamplight. He sold them for just enough to live on. Sometimes he would give them away for nothing, if the children had no money, just to see the look on their faces.

Above his door, he had a sign that said, "Never Worked and Never Will". People used to stop to watch him, and some of them would ask about the sign, "How can you say you've never worked and never will? Nobody works harder than you do."

He'd just beam a smile at them and say, "How can you call this 'work'?"

That spirit certainly didn't die in the garden. There are still people who enjoy every minute of their work.

Speak for yourself, Easymoney.

It is easy to make money - unless you want a lot of it. :)

I'm looking for the New earth and the New Jerusalem with all the streets of gold, pearly gates and the life trees on both sides of the river bearing 12 kinds of fruit. Now that, me friend will be promotion, big time!

Sounds more like New Hell to me. :)

I'm a prairie boy. I'd rather have a big sky, a dusty road and my old worn-out sandals. Free choke-cherries, free saskatoons....

Garden of Eden, baby. :)

Edited by Ringo, : Promoted God from "he" to "He".

Edited by Ringo, : Planted plural treeS.


Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by Buzsaw, posted 09-06-2006 9:14 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 46 by Buzsaw, posted 09-09-2006 3:35 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19745
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 45 of 59 (347258)
09-07-2006 11:09 AM
Reply to: Message 44 by nator
09-07-2006 7:22 AM


Re: Brief And Boring?
schrafinator writes:

... how are the raspberry bushes going to reseed themselves?

More sweat-of-the-brow work for the gardeners. :D


Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC

This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by nator, posted 09-07-2006 7:22 AM nator has not replied

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19745
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 49 of 59 (347814)
09-09-2006 4:47 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by Buzsaw
09-09-2006 3:35 PM


Re: Apples and Oranges
Buzsaw writes:

Thanks for he lesson on both the walk and the eats.

Well, the lesson was that the human race has become more attuned to God, not less. Since acquiring the knowledge of good and evil, we have become more like God, not less.

quote:
Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever:

So, until you turn the "fall" into a climb, you really haven't learned the lesson. :)

... the rugged fishermen who risked their lives to make their living.

I have an uncle who used to be a fisherman. Know what he used to do on his day off?

He went fishing.

He fished to earn a living, but he also fished because he loved the work.

I used to know another retired fisherman. Know what he did during his retirement? He built a huge house on a remote island, falling the trees and cutting the lumber himself - all without power tools.

Before he died - well into his nineties, I imagine - he was planning to sail around the world single-handed in a dugout canoe.

So, hard work is just a matter of attitude.

There are still people who enjoy every minute of their work.

Granted, but that doesn't erase my point.

Yeah, it really does. ;)

From the description of heaven however, I'll go for it, especially since we'll all exist somewhere different anyhow. It'll definitely beat the torment of hell where no footwear and no chokecherries can exist.

No need to worry about hell, as long as you feed the hungry, etc.

quote:
Mat 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
Mat 25:35 For I was hungry, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
Mat 25:36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.


Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC

This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by Buzsaw, posted 09-09-2006 3:35 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 53 by Buzsaw, posted 09-16-2006 6:22 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19745
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 54 of 59 (349697)
09-16-2006 9:56 PM
Reply to: Message 53 by Buzsaw
09-16-2006 6:22 PM


Re: Apples and Oranges
Buzsaw writes:

That the knowledge of evil was added to their beings did not make them more like God.

You're contradicting God:

quote:
Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil:

Argue with Him. :)


Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC

This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by Buzsaw, posted 09-16-2006 6:22 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 55 by Buzsaw, posted 09-17-2006 12:13 AM ringo has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2018 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.1
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2022