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Author Topic:   Oh my how things have changed!!!
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 31 of 125 (348061)
09-11-2006 7:07 AM
Reply to: Message 21 by nator
09-09-2006 6:32 PM


Well, then, lobby for the ERA.
That way employers would be legally required to pay women equal pay for equal work.
How ignorant of you to think I don't.
I don't have a problem with anyone getting paid what they deserve.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by nator, posted 09-09-2006 6:32 PM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 74 by nator, posted 09-14-2006 9:39 PM riVeRraT has not replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 32 of 125 (348062)
09-11-2006 7:09 AM
Reply to: Message 27 by U can call me Cookie
09-11-2006 3:05 AM


Re: Fetch my Belt
Goes back much further than that, but I fail to see what that has to do with anything we are talking about here.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by U can call me Cookie, posted 09-11-2006 3:05 AM U can call me Cookie has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by U can call me Cookie, posted 09-11-2006 7:16 AM riVeRraT has replied

  
U can call me Cookie
Member (Idle past 4953 days)
Posts: 228
From: jo'burg, RSA
Joined: 11-15-2005


Message 33 of 125 (348063)
09-11-2006 7:16 AM
Reply to: Message 32 by riVeRraT
09-11-2006 7:09 AM


Re: Fetch my Belt
Never said it didn't go back further...
The essense of S & M lies in the Dominant-Submissive dynamic.
Come now RR, one doesn't have to read between the lines to see it.

"The good Christian should beware the mathematician and all those who make empty prophecies. The danger already exists that the mathematicians have made a covenant with the devil to darken the spirit and to confine man in the bonds of hell." - St. Augustine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by riVeRraT, posted 09-11-2006 7:09 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by riVeRraT, posted 09-11-2006 8:02 AM U can call me Cookie has replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 34 of 125 (348074)
09-11-2006 8:02 AM
Reply to: Message 33 by U can call me Cookie
09-11-2006 7:16 AM


Re: Fetch my Belt
I don't know, I don't see the woman portrayed in that ad to be voluntarily submissive.
It doesn't really portray S&M to me.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by U can call me Cookie, posted 09-11-2006 7:16 AM U can call me Cookie has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by U can call me Cookie, posted 09-11-2006 8:22 AM riVeRraT has replied

  
U can call me Cookie
Member (Idle past 4953 days)
Posts: 228
From: jo'burg, RSA
Joined: 11-15-2005


Message 35 of 125 (348077)
09-11-2006 8:22 AM
Reply to: Message 34 by riVeRraT
09-11-2006 8:02 AM


Re: Fetch my Belt
Geez, RR, i know you've read the article since you're the one who posted it!
I'm not commenting on the picture, i'm commenting on the content of the article. Clearly portrays the dominant-submissive dynamic that was the expected norm at the time.
See, now you've gone and turned a one-liner into...well... more than one line
Edited by U can call me Cookie, : No reason given.

"The good Christian should beware the mathematician and all those who make empty prophecies. The danger already exists that the mathematicians have made a covenant with the devil to darken the spirit and to confine man in the bonds of hell." - St. Augustine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by riVeRraT, posted 09-11-2006 8:02 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by riVeRraT, posted 09-11-2006 5:45 PM U can call me Cookie has not replied

  
CK
Member (Idle past 4128 days)
Posts: 3221
Joined: 07-04-2004


Message 36 of 125 (348079)
09-11-2006 8:24 AM
Reply to: Message 27 by U can call me Cookie
09-11-2006 3:05 AM


Suffering Sappho!
Earlier than that in popular American culture - The Wonderwoman comic had a S&M subtext, she'd be tied up, tied down every adventure (sometimes several times an adventure):
Edited by CK, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by U can call me Cookie, posted 09-11-2006 3:05 AM U can call me Cookie has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by U can call me Cookie, posted 09-11-2006 8:31 AM CK has replied

  
U can call me Cookie
Member (Idle past 4953 days)
Posts: 228
From: jo'burg, RSA
Joined: 11-15-2005


Message 37 of 125 (348083)
09-11-2006 8:31 AM
Reply to: Message 36 by CK
09-11-2006 8:24 AM


Re: Fetch my Belt
That's brilliant, societal subversion by the most patriotic of female super-heroines...
Mind you, who wouldn't want to tie down Wonderwoman...

"The good Christian should beware the mathematician and all those who make empty prophecies. The danger already exists that the mathematicians have made a covenant with the devil to darken the spirit and to confine man in the bonds of hell." - St. Augustine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by CK, posted 09-11-2006 8:24 AM CK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by CK, posted 09-11-2006 8:35 AM U can call me Cookie has not replied

  
CK
Member (Idle past 4128 days)
Posts: 3221
Joined: 07-04-2004


Message 38 of 125 (348084)
09-11-2006 8:35 AM
Reply to: Message 37 by U can call me Cookie
09-11-2006 8:31 AM


Re: Fetch my Belt
The creator was an interesting chap:
quote:
Psychologist and inventor
Marston is credited as the creator of the systolic blood-pressure test used to detect deception, which became one component of the modern polygraph.
From this work, Marston had been convinced that women were more honest and reliable than men, and could work faster and more accurately. During his lifetime, Marston championed the causes of women of the day.
Marston was also a writer of essays in popular psychology.
In 1928 he published his book "Emotions of Normal People" which became a classic for the DISC-Theory later developed further by John G. Geier. He viewed people behaving along two axes, with their attention being either passive or active, depending on the individual's perception of his or her environment as either favourable or antagonistic. By placing the axes at right angles, four quadrants form with each describing a behavioral pattern:
* Dominance produces activity in an antagonistic environment
* Inducement produces activity in a favourable environment
* Steadiness produces passivity in a favourable environment
* Compliance produces passivity in an antagonistic environment.
His best known theory was that there is a male notion of freedom that is inherently anarchic and violent, and an opposing female notion based on "Love Allure" that leads to an ideal state of submission to loving authority. His concerns about the effects of gender stereotyping in popular culture were expressed in a 1944 article published in The American Scholar:
"Not even girls want to be girls so long as our feminine archetype lacks force, strength, and power... The obvious remedy is to create a feminine character with all the strength of Superman plus all the allure of a good and beautiful woman (Marston, 1944, p. 42-43)".
quote:
Themes
Marston's Wonder Woman is often cited as an early example of bondage themes entering popular culture: physical submission appears again and again throughout Marston's comics work, with Wonder Woman and her criminal opponents frequently being tied up or otherwise restrained, and her Amazonian friends engaging in frequent wrestling and bondage play (possibly based on Marston's earlier research studies on sorority initiations). These elements were softened by later writers of the series. Though Marston had described female nature as submissive, in his other writings and interviews he referred to submission to women as a noble and potentially world-saving practice, leading ideally to the establishment of a matriarchy, and did not shy away from the sexual implications of this:
"The only hope for peace is to teach people who are full of pep and unbound force to enjoy being bound ... Only when the control of self by others is more pleasant than the unbound assertion of self in human relationships can we hope for a stable, peaceful human society. ... Giving to others, being controlled by them, submitting to other people cannot possibly be enjoyable without a strong erotic element".
About male readers, he later wrote: "Give them an alluring woman stronger than themselves to submit to, and they'll be proud to become her willing slaves!"
William Moulton Marston - Wikipedia

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by U can call me Cookie, posted 09-11-2006 8:31 AM U can call me Cookie has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by jar, posted 09-11-2006 10:44 AM CK has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 39 of 125 (348093)
09-11-2006 10:44 AM
Reply to: Message 38 by CK
09-11-2006 8:35 AM


Re: Fetch my Belt
About male readers, he later wrote: "Give them an alluring woman stronger than themselves to submit to, and they'll be proud to become her willing slaves!"
However I never fully comprehended the alluring nature of "Little Maggie" that you folk seemed to see.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by CK, posted 09-11-2006 8:35 AM CK has not replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 40 of 125 (348105)
09-11-2006 12:02 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by riVeRraT
09-11-2006 7:06 AM


quote:
Since we decided to insert our "secular" constitution into our Christian morality.
How are Christian marriages affected if gay marriages are recognized by the government?
Nobody is forcing Christians to change their morality.
It is Christians that are forcing their morality onto civil marriage by discriminating against ga marriage.
Edited by schrafinator, : No reason given.

"Science is like a blabbermouth who ruins a movie by telling you how it ends! Well I say there are some things we don't want to know! Important things!"
- Ned Flanders
"Question with boldness even the existence of God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear." - Thomas Jefferson

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by riVeRraT, posted 09-11-2006 7:06 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by riVeRraT, posted 09-11-2006 5:59 PM nator has replied

  
1.61803
Member (Idle past 1504 days)
Posts: 2928
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


Message 41 of 125 (348168)
09-11-2006 4:57 PM


Men are superfulous today. Woman lead men in education and college enrollment. They are preparing for the take over of the world. The age of Gynarchy has come!!!!!!

Replies to this message:
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riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 42 of 125 (348178)
09-11-2006 5:45 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by U can call me Cookie
09-11-2006 8:22 AM


Re: Fetch my Belt
Alright, I am sorry then.
I just didn't see it that way.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by U can call me Cookie, posted 09-11-2006 8:22 AM U can call me Cookie has not replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 43 of 125 (348179)
09-11-2006 5:59 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by nator
09-11-2006 12:02 PM


How are Christian marriages affected if gay marriages are recognized by the government?
That has nothing to do with what I said or this thread, stop it.
Nobody is forcing Christians to change their morality.
When did I say they were? Also off-topic
It is Christians that are forcing their morality onto civil marriage by discriminating against ga marriage.
Marriage has traditionally been between a man and a woman for a very long time. Change does not come easy. Although I have decided to live and let live, I think others need convincing that people are genetically gay, and deserve the same rights based on something they cannot change about themselves.
I also wouldn't use the term Christians, and would use the term people. Since we cannot determine what a true Christian is, and that there are Christians who are fine with it, then you have to stop discrimination, and lumoing all Christians into a category, it's called predjudice.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by nator, posted 09-11-2006 12:02 PM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 44 by CK, posted 09-11-2006 6:04 PM riVeRraT has replied
 Message 46 by nator, posted 09-12-2006 7:29 AM riVeRraT has replied

  
CK
Member (Idle past 4128 days)
Posts: 3221
Joined: 07-04-2004


Message 44 of 125 (348180)
09-11-2006 6:04 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by riVeRraT
09-11-2006 5:59 PM


quote:
I think others need convincing that people are genetically gay, and deserve the same rights based on something they cannot change about themselves.
What if they just like being gay? what's the issue then?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by riVeRraT, posted 09-11-2006 5:59 PM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 47 by riVeRraT, posted 09-12-2006 9:42 PM CK has not replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 45 of 125 (348319)
09-12-2006 7:18 AM
Reply to: Message 41 by 1.61803
09-11-2006 4:57 PM


quote:
Men are superfulous today. Woman lead men in education and college enrollment.
But they are being kept from advancing to the highest levels of power and influence in their professions, including, but not limited to, academia.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by 1.61803, posted 09-11-2006 4:57 PM 1.61803 has not replied

  
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