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Author Topic:   The first 3 chapters of Genesis
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 16 of 307 (349380)
09-15-2006 4:23 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by mjfloresta
09-15-2006 4:12 PM


mjfloresta writes:
Let's suppose for a minute that Genesis was a fictional novel written by a writer of fiction
That's exactly what I have been doing all along.
How would the genre of writing change how you read the text?
It wouldn't.
... this is a work of fiction, therefore Mark Twain can't be saying that Huck Finn is actually rafting down the mississippi - It must be an allusion to life.
Are you saying that Huck Finn isn't an allusion to life?
What forces that interpretation, whether the text is fiction or historical?
What forces you to decide if a text is historical or fictional?

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by mjfloresta, posted 09-15-2006 4:12 PM mjfloresta has replied

Replies to this message:
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robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 17 of 307 (349381)
09-15-2006 4:24 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by ringo
09-15-2006 4:17 PM


Did the authors intend it as history or as an explanation?
I don't know and nobody knows.
We are trying to figure out what happens in the story. It does not matter if it fits in with somebody's idea of God or if it fits in with what is just or anything else.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by ringo, posted 09-15-2006 4:17 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by ringo, posted 09-15-2006 4:32 PM robinrohan has replied

mjfloresta
Member (Idle past 5994 days)
Posts: 277
From: N.Y.
Joined: 06-08-2006


Message 18 of 307 (349383)
09-15-2006 4:28 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by ringo
09-15-2006 4:23 PM


... this is a work of fiction, therefore Mark Twain can't be saying that Huck Finn is actually rafting down the mississippi - It must be an allusion to life.
Are you saying that Huck Finn isn't an allusion to life?
It might in fact be - if you can read that into the text and if you have evidence that the author intended it that way. None of that changes the first meaning that Huck Finn is actually rafting down the mississippi.
You're using a supposed allegorical understanding of the Genesis text to REPLACE the plain meaning of the text.
Edited by AdminJar, : fix broke quotebox

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ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 19 of 307 (349384)
09-15-2006 4:28 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by mjfloresta
09-15-2006 4:20 PM


mjfloresta writes:
Genesis 1:1 - In the beggining God created the Heavens and the Earth
That would seem to double as both an historical account and a causative explanation.
I'm not interested in what the story claims to be. Treasure Island claims to be a historical narrative too.
Once again ,the question is: What evidence do you have to indicate that the authors of Genesis intended the Adam and Eve story to be taken historically?
Did they really believe in talking snakes? Did they really believe that two individuals can comprise a viable gene pool?

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This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by mjfloresta, posted 09-15-2006 4:32 PM ringo has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 20 of 307 (349386)
09-15-2006 4:29 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by robinrohan
09-15-2006 3:12 PM


Well, it starts as usual with Robin misrepresenting what has been said
Jar and others in another thread claim that the traditional interpretation--that God punishes Adam and Eve for eating from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil (we can shorten this to KGE) is incorrect.
And where exactly did I say that they were not punished?
What I have said is
  1. there is no FALL in the GOE story.
  2. they are banned from the GOE because God fears they will eat from the Tree of Life.
  3. that the GOE story is a "Just So Story" that explains why
    • snakes have no legs.
    • childbirth seems more difficult for humans than for other animals.
    • people fear snakes and kill them when seen.
    • humans farm instead of foraging.
Please stop misrepresenting what others say.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by robinrohan, posted 09-15-2006 3:12 PM robinrohan has replied

Replies to this message:
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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 21 of 307 (349388)
09-15-2006 4:31 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by mjfloresta
09-15-2006 4:08 PM


Are you willing to stake your life on that?
Hell yes. LOL

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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mjfloresta
Member (Idle past 5994 days)
Posts: 277
From: N.Y.
Joined: 06-08-2006


Message 22 of 307 (349389)
09-15-2006 4:32 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by ringo
09-15-2006 4:28 PM


Treasure Island claims to be a historical narrative too
Excuse me? Where do you get that?
I'm not interested in what the story claims to be.
What evidence do you have to indicate that the authors of Genesis intended the Adam and Eve story to be taken historically?
How can what the story claims to be and what the authors intend be different things?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by ringo, posted 09-15-2006 4:28 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
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ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 23 of 307 (349390)
09-15-2006 4:32 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by robinrohan
09-15-2006 4:24 PM


robinrohan writes:
Did the authors intend it as history or as an explanation?
I don't know and nobody knows.
We are trying to figure out what happens in the story.
That's just the point. If it's an explanation, then nothing "happened" in the story. If Adam and Eve were not real people, then they could not have been "punished". Their "punishment" would have to be an explantion for the status quo.

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 Message 17 by robinrohan, posted 09-15-2006 4:24 PM robinrohan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by robinrohan, posted 09-15-2006 4:43 PM ringo has replied

robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 24 of 307 (349391)
09-15-2006 4:37 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by jar
09-15-2006 4:29 PM


Re: Well, it starts as usual with Robin misrepresenting what has been said
And where exactly did I say that they were not punished?
So they were punished? What for?

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 Message 20 by jar, posted 09-15-2006 4:29 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by jar, posted 09-15-2006 4:40 PM robinrohan has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 25 of 307 (349393)
09-15-2006 4:40 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by robinrohan
09-15-2006 4:37 PM


Re: Well, it starts as usual with Robin misrepresenting what has been said
jar writes:
And where exactly did I say that they were not punished?
to which robinrohan replied:
So they were punished? What for?
Sorry robin but your reply is unrelated to the question I asked.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by robinrohan, posted 09-15-2006 4:37 PM robinrohan has replied

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ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 26 of 307 (349394)
09-15-2006 4:41 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by mjfloresta
09-15-2006 4:32 PM


mjfloresta writes:
Treasure Island claims to be a historical narrative too
Excuse me? Where do you get that?
From the first line:
quote:
SQUIRE TRELAWNEY, Dr Livesey, and the rest of these gentlemen having asked me to write down the whole particulars about Treasure island, from the beginning to the end, keeping nothing back but the bearings of the island, and that only because there is still treasure not yet lifted, I take up my pen in the year of grace 17”, and go back to the time when my father kept the 'Admiral Benbow' inn, and the brown old seaman, with the sabre cut, first took up his lodging under our roof.
It's considerably more explicit than Genesis.
How can what the story claims to be and what the authors intend be different things?
Again I give you Tresure Island. It claims to be a historical narrative. The author intended it as a fictional entertainment.
Hint: Part of the fiction is the claim of historicity.

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This message is a reply to:
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robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 27 of 307 (349395)
09-15-2006 4:43 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by ringo
09-15-2006 4:32 PM


If it's an explanation, then nothing "happened" in the story. If Adam and Eve were not real people, then they could not have been "punished".
We are talking about a story. In the story, they can be punished.
It's like asking, did Claudius poison Hamlet's father? Yes, he did.
Did Hamlet kill Polonius? Yes, he did.
Quite definite answers, you see.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by ringo, posted 09-15-2006 4:32 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by ringo, posted 09-15-2006 4:47 PM robinrohan has replied

robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 28 of 307 (349396)
09-15-2006 4:46 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by jar
09-15-2006 4:40 PM


Re: Well, it starts as usual with Robin misrepresenting what has been said
Sorry robin but your reply is unrelated to the question I asked.
Why were they punished, Jar?

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Replies to this message:
 Message 175 by robinrohan, posted 09-17-2006 9:09 PM robinrohan has replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 29 of 307 (349397)
09-15-2006 4:47 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by robinrohan
09-15-2006 4:43 PM


robinrohan writes:
We are talking about a story. In the story, they can be punished.
But it isn't a real "punishment". What does the "punishment" really mean?

Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
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This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by robinrohan, posted 09-15-2006 4:43 PM robinrohan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by robinrohan, posted 09-15-2006 4:48 PM ringo has replied

robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 30 of 307 (349398)
09-15-2006 4:48 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by ringo
09-15-2006 4:47 PM


What does the "punishment" really mean?
We are not talking about meaning. We are talking about the facts of the story.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by ringo, posted 09-15-2006 4:47 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by ringo, posted 09-15-2006 4:51 PM robinrohan has replied

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