Buzsaw's Belief Statement

A few things:

Me too. I'm wondering where you stand on The Fall^TM and Original Sin, since I don't recall ever hearing those terms in those churches.

If more "needs" to happen before the rapture, how can you know the timescale of those events?
That is, how can you "predict" that the "end" is coming "soon"?

I'm curious as to how long you've believed that the antiChrist will be a Muslim.

It seems to me that nobody gave "the Muslims" a second thought until the Ayatollahs took over Iran.
Was your "conclusion" foresight or hindsight?

(By the way, you can avoid having two number 9s by using a dBCode list.) :)

I don't see any significant difference.
"All creatures were created roughly six milleniums ago" is a non-starter just as YECism is.

Hmm... I never did. Must have dozed off on every single occasion, or something. :)

It's a joke, intended to poke fun at how silly the concept of a Fall^TM is.

So you agree that the idea of a Fall^TM is nonsensical and the idea of original sin is a cop-out.

(I don't know if there's ever been a real discussion of the Fall^TM during my time at EvC. Fallists^TM tend to run away from Bible discussions as if the Devil^TM himself was chasing them.)

That's what I thought. ;)

In two hundred years, when the Himmelfarbians come to prominence, I suppose Bible "prophecy" will demonize them instead.

The problem is with the "young" part - it completely fails to accept reality. We can see the reality of an old universe and old creatures just by looking at the evidence. That's why a "young" scenario of any kind is a complete non-starter.

According to Genesis, God has only "worked" for six days of His life. :)

No, I certainly can't agree to that.

I do accept the account as "historical" - in the sense that it's an explanation for why things are the way they are. It's the status quo, not a "fall".

In the same way that your hypothesis diminishes the Napoleon hypothesis - by making it totally obsolete. Two hundred years from now, the fulfillment of prophecy will still not be complete and the "Muslim menace" will have been forgotten.

Unfortunately, that damages your credibility in other areas. If you had done your homework, you would know that the "young creatures" hypothesis is false.

So how can we trust the homework you've done on prophecy?

Context, my man. :)

You said:

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The difference is that I only have the creatures as young whereas YEC's generally have the whole universe as young. That, imo, is just nutty thinking and leaves God with nothing around him and nothing to do except for the last six milleniums. Message 7

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You're the one who claimed that YEC leaves God with "nothing to do". I only pointed out that that's what Genesis says. I didn't make any claims for the whole Bible.

to:

Which is it? Is there a "clear" implication of a fall?
Or does the text wording say plainly and simply that there was a fall?

As I said, the story explains the status and life quality of mankind. To me, it doesn't mean there was a change. The "curse" is the status quo, which has always been.

But, as I have said in other threads, I find it odd that anybody would think a gain of the knowledge of good and evil could be a "fall". I think it's a fine trade off for a little hard work, pain in childbirth, etc.

A gain in knowledge is a "climb" to any but those who prefer ignorance. :)

You're a little too cocky about pinning down the date - sign of a false prophet. Remind me not to stand too close to you in a thunderstrom. ;)

I leave the mustard-cutting judgement to the intelligent members of the board. If you want to crow about substance, provide some. :)

It's not a "fall" from a life of sloth to the dignity of honest labour.

There is no indication that they ever had immortality to lose.

What they previously enjoyed? They were layabouts. :D

The knowledge of good and evil gave them worth.

"Status" has nothing to do with it. Knowledge (and maturity) has inherent value.

Now that's funny, :laugh:

You ignore all the evidence about dating and you have the gall to compare your methods with science. :laugh:

What could they possibly "accomplish" in a "perfect" world?

Why would the "kingdom of God" need their "accomplishments"?

Speak for yourself. :)

That pretty much shoots down the argument that there was a "change" when they had to work for a living, doesn't it?

And yet His covenant with Israel included:

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Lev 26:12 And I will walk among you, and will be your God, and ye shall be my people.

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Another way of putting it:

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Mic 6:8 He hath showed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?

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"Walking in His ways", "walking before Him", etc. is one of the most common metaphors in the Bible.

No change. No fall. :)

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Gen 2:15 And the LORD God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it.

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What do you suppose "dressing it and keeping it" entailed?

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Recap: Man went from walking with God to walking with God - only now the choice is his own. And he went from tending a garden to tending a garden - only now the responsibility is his own.

Sounds like a promotion, not a fall. :)

So you can't make a case for the "fall" without making up stuff that ain't in the Bible, eh? :)

Let's see what it actually says, shall we?

How many times did God talk to Adam before the "fall"?

Once:

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Gen 2:16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

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How many times did He talk to Eve?

None.

How many times did He walk with Adam and Eve in the garden before the "fall"?

None.

The first mention of God walking in the garden is:

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Gen 3:8 And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden.

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which is after they ate the fruit (and notice that God was alone).

So it seems that God's relationship with mankind was much more intimate after the supposed "fall".

Um... there are still fruit trees around now, aren't there? Where's the change?

I remember reading a story titled Never Worked and Never Will:

Once upon a time there was a toymaker. From sunup to sundown he made toys, and often continued late into the night by lamplight. He sold them for just enough to live on. Sometimes he would give them away for nothing, if the children had no money, just to see the look on their faces.

Above his door, he had a sign that said, "Never Worked and Never Will". People used to stop to watch him, and some of them would ask about the sign, "How can you say you've never worked and never will? Nobody works harder than you do."

He'd just beam a smile at them and say, "How can you call this 'work'?"

That spirit certainly didn't die in the garden. There are still people who enjoy every minute of their work.

It is easy to make money - unless you want a lot of it. :)

Sounds more like New Hell to me. :)

I'm a prairie boy. I'd rather have a big sky, a dusty road and my old worn-out sandals. Free choke-cherries, free saskatoons....

Garden of Eden, baby. :)

Edited by Ringo, : Promoted God from "he" to "He".

Edited by Ringo, : Planted plural treeS.

More sweat-of-the-brow work for the gardeners. :D

Well, the lesson was that the human race has become more attuned to God, not less. Since acquiring the knowledge of good and evil, we have become more like God, not less.

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Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever:

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So, until you turn the "fall" into a climb, you really haven't learned the lesson. :)

I have an uncle who used to be a fisherman. Know what he used to do on his day off?

He went fishing.

He fished to earn a living, but he also fished because he loved the work.

I used to know another retired fisherman. Know what he did during his retirement? He built a huge house on a remote island, falling the trees and cutting the lumber himself - all without power tools.

Before he died - well into his nineties, I imagine - he was planning to sail around the world single-handed in a dugout canoe.

So, hard work is just a matter of attitude.

Yeah, it really does. ;)

No need to worry about hell, as long as you feed the hungry, etc.

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Mat 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
Mat 25:35 For I was hungry, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
Mat 25:36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.

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You're contradicting God:

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Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil:

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Argue with Him. :)