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Author
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Topic: The first 3 chapters of Genesis
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Percy
Member Posts: 22480 From: New Hampshire Joined: 12-23-2000 Member Rating: 4.8
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Message 181 of 307 (350321)
09-19-2006 1:38 PM
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Reply to: Message 179 by AdminPD
09-19-2006 12:22 PM
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Re: Warning - Harrassment
I touched on this in an earlier post, but I think it bears repeating. I think the difference between Jar and Robinrohan isn't about whether Adam and Eve were punished. Both believe they were punished. But they disagree about whether expulsion from the Garden of Eden constituted part of the punishment. Jar believes that God's action of cursing the ground so that men would have to toil all their days encompassed the entire world, including the Garden of Eden. Men would have to toil all their days whether they remained in the Garden of Eden or not. But that Adam and Eve had eaten from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil caused God to realize that they might also eat from the Tree of Life and become as gods themselves, and so he was forced to prevent this possibility by banishing them from the garden. Robinrohan believes that the Garden of Eden was excluded from the curse, that it continued to be a paradise, and that God had to banish Adam and Eve from the garden not only to prevent them from eating of the Tree of Life, but also for the full punishment to take effect. Whether by design or not, Jar's clipped and cryptic style represent a significant obstacle to discernment of his position, in my opinion. It wouldn't surprise me in the least if he replies to this post saying that I've got it all wrong. After all, it just wouldn't do for anyone to know what Jar actually thought about something!  --Percy
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 179 by AdminPD, posted 09-19-2006 12:22 PM | | AdminPD has not replied |
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Brian
Member (Idle past 4981 days) Posts: 4659 From: Scotland Joined: 10-22-2002
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Message 182 of 307 (350332)
09-19-2006 2:07 PM
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God obviously punished them because they ate from the tree of good and evil. If they hadn't eaten the fruit from that then no action would have been taken by God. Not being allowed to eat from the tree of life was part of the punishment for eating from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Brian.
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robinrohan
Inactive Member
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Message 183 of 307 (350333)
09-19-2006 2:09 PM
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Reply to: Message 182 by Brian
09-19-2006 2:07 PM
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God obviously punished them because they ate from the tree of good and evil. If they hadn't eaten the fruit from that then no action would have been taken by God. Not being allowed to eat from the tree of life was part of the punishment for eating from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Exactly.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 182 by Brian, posted 09-19-2006 2:07 PM | | Brian has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 184 by Brian, posted 09-19-2006 2:44 PM | | robinrohan has not replied | | | Message 185 by Percy, posted 09-19-2006 3:06 PM | | robinrohan has replied |
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Brian
Member (Idle past 4981 days) Posts: 4659 From: Scotland Joined: 10-22-2002
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Still a fairytale though, but the only conclusion from an English comprehension approach. Brian.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 183 by robinrohan, posted 09-19-2006 2:09 PM | | robinrohan has not replied |
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Percy
Member Posts: 22480 From: New Hampshire Joined: 12-23-2000 Member Rating: 4.8
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robinrohan writes: Brian writes: Not being allowed to eat from the tree of life was part of the punishment for eating from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Exactly. You mean that your and Brian's interpretation is that it would have been okay with God if Adam and Eve had eaten from the Tree of Life? He wasn't worried that they might live forever, but he didn't want them to know good from evil? I like this interpretation. Not sure if I'll make it my own, but it has some obvious appeal. --Percy
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robinrohan
Inactive Member
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Message 186 of 307 (350355)
09-19-2006 3:14 PM
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Reply to: Message 185 by Percy
09-19-2006 3:06 PM
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You mean that your and Brian's interpretation is that it would have been okay with God if Adam and Eve had eaten from the Tree of Life? He wasn't worried that they might live forever, but he didn't want them to know good from evil? They had been eating from the Tree of Life all along, but God took the immortality away when they disobeyed and didn't let them eat from it again.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 185 by Percy, posted 09-19-2006 3:06 PM | | Percy has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 187 by jar, posted 09-19-2006 3:19 PM | | robinrohan has replied | | | Message 208 by Percy, posted 09-20-2006 5:54 PM | | robinrohan has replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 415 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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They had been eating from the Tree of Life all along, but God took the immortality away when they disobeyed and didn't let them eat from it again. But that is not what the Bible says. The actual passage is:
22 And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever. It says allowed, not allowed to continue or allowed to eat more.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member
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Message 188 of 307 (350358)
09-19-2006 3:25 PM
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Reply to: Message 1 by robinrohan
09-15-2006 3:12 PM
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Literal or allegorical?
I'm interested in interpretation generally and in what appear to me the bizarre interpretations I've been reading lately about what actually happens in this story. Jar and others in another thread claim that the traditional interpretation--that God punishes Adam and Eve for eating from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil (we can shorten this to KGE) is incorrect. They say that Adam and Eve are being sent away from Eden so that they won't eat from the Tree of Life, not because they did eat from the KGE, and this being sent away does not consititute punishment. I think the broader and more important question is to ask how the Bible should be read. My thoughts are that much of the Bible is literal and much of it is symbolic. Whether or not Adam actually ate of the fruit or whether he disobyed God in another form really is inconsequential to the point. The moral of the story is to obey God in all things and those that do have prosperous lives.
Adam's punishment consists of his having to "eat of the ground" which is or will soon be cursed; this ground will be infested by thorns and thistles (whereas before it was not); he will sweat to get this inferior food; and he will die. Actualy, the on the 'ground' portion is dealt to the Serpent 'who will eat the dust.' Adam's lot is that he will have to till the ground and work hard for his nourishment, instead of it growing solely by the volition of God.
Apart from whether they remain in Eden or not, the punishment has been declared. The tone of God moreover is that of anger. Any unbiased reader can see this plainly. I guess I'm not understanding your objection/question. What is the issue you have exactly with this piece of scripture?
"There is not in all America a more dangerous trait than the deification of mere smartness unaccompanied by any sense of moral responsibility." -Theodore Roosevelt
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 1 by robinrohan, posted 09-15-2006 3:12 PM | | robinrohan has replied |
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robinrohan
Inactive Member
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Re: Literal or allegorical?
What is the issue you have exactly with this piece of scripture? I was objecting to interpretations by others that God did not punish Adam and Eve for eating from the KGE.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 188 by Hyroglyphx, posted 09-19-2006 3:25 PM | | Hyroglyphx has not replied |
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robinrohan
Inactive Member
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Message 190 of 307 (350365)
09-19-2006 3:38 PM
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Reply to: Message 187 by jar
09-19-2006 3:19 PM
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It says allowed, not allowed to continue or allowed to eat more. Well, ok. The story is not clear on that point.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 187 by jar, posted 09-19-2006 3:19 PM | | jar has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 191 by jar, posted 09-19-2006 3:51 PM | | robinrohan has replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 415 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Way too funny.
jar writes: It says allowed, not allowed to continue or allowed to eat more. refering to Genesis 3 which was included in the post and repeated here:
Genesis 3 writes: 22 And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever. and then robin claims:
quote:
Well, ok. The story is not clear on that point.
How is it NOT clear on that point robin? It says "must not be allowed". That seems pretty clear. In the King James version it says:
22And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: " and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever..." Robin, it is VERY clear.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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robinrohan
Inactive Member
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Message 192 of 307 (350393)
09-19-2006 4:14 PM
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Reply to: Message 191 by jar
09-19-2006 3:51 PM
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Re: Way too funny.
Robin, it is VERY clear. It would be clear if God had issued a commandment against eating from the Tree of Life, but no such commandment was issued. The Tree of Life was mentioned in Chapter 2 as being there all along.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 191 by jar, posted 09-19-2006 3:51 PM | | jar has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 193 by jar, posted 09-19-2006 4:29 PM | | robinrohan has not replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 415 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Re: Way too funny.
It would be clear if God had issued a commandment against eating from the Tree of Life, but no such commandment was issued. The Tree of Life was mentioned in Chapter 2 as being there all along. Not only was the Tree of Life there all along, there was permission for Adam to eat from it. I have even posted those verses in this very thread. Genesis 2:
16 And the LORD God commanded the man, "You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; 17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die." That has NOTHING to do with whether or not Adam HAD eaten from the Tree of Life. What the Bible actually says about whether or not he had eaten from the Tree of Life has also been posted in this thread. From the NIV:
22 And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever. " He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat" From the King James Version:
22And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: " and now, lest he put forth his hand" I am happy to post what others versions have to say about it but they all seem to agree on this point. You are free to make up anything you want, to add whatever you want to what is actually there, but I can only report what the Bible really says.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 192 by robinrohan, posted 09-19-2006 4:14 PM | | robinrohan has not replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 194 by Brian, posted 09-19-2006 5:31 PM | | jar has replied |
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Brian
Member (Idle past 4981 days) Posts: 4659 From: Scotland Joined: 10-22-2002
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Message 194 of 307 (350431)
09-19-2006 5:31 PM
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Reply to: Message 193 by jar
09-19-2006 4:29 PM
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Re: Way too funny.
Why were they not allowed to eat from the Tree of Life? My understanding is if you eat from the tree of life then that makes you immortal, I didn't think you had to keep eating from it. Brian.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 193 by jar, posted 09-19-2006 4:29 PM | | jar has replied |
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Brian
Member (Idle past 4981 days) Posts: 4659 From: Scotland Joined: 10-22-2002
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Message 195 of 307 (350436)
09-19-2006 5:44 PM
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Reply to: Message 185 by Percy
09-19-2006 3:06 PM
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You mean that your and Brian's interpretation is that it would have been okay with God if Adam and Eve had eaten from the Tree of Life? He wasn't worried that they might live forever, but he didn't want them to know good from evil? That's not my interpretation at all. Brian.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 185 by Percy, posted 09-19-2006 3:06 PM | | Percy has not replied |
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