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Author Topic:   George Bush leads us into the world of Kafka.
Jaderis
Member (Idle past 3425 days)
Posts: 622
From: NY,NY
Joined: 06-16-2006


Message 91 of 150 (350450)
09-19-2006 6:27 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by Hyroglyphx
09-19-2006 11:27 AM


Re: A general reply
What aggressive action did the US do to any Arab or Muslim nation to justify the Khobar towers, World Trade Center towers, the USS Cole, etc?
Are you fracking serious???
I suppose you think that America is completely untainted and anything that it (meaning policies carried out by its government) has done is sanctioned by God as its divine right, so therefore, it can do no wrong.
How sad is that?
Why don't you learn a little history first instead of blindly defending some very abhorrent policy.
As for the actions that may have been/may be used as justification for terrorist actions (in their eyes and I'm only guessing because I am not a terrorist):
-Continuing US support and arming of Israel (when your family is killed by US made bombs you might be a little peeved, dontcha think?) in its wars against Arab states and US willingness to ignore the nuclear threat Israel poses (they've never signed the Nuclear Non-proliferation Treaty and haven't allowed inspections of the nuclear facilities since the 1960's)
-The installation and support by the US of the Shah, Mohammed Reza Pahlavi, in Iran
-US support (past and present) of authoritarian/human rights abusing regimes in Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Iran (under the pro-US shah), Jordan, Bahrain, Kuwait, etc
-The Iran-Iraq war
-The 1991 Persian Gulf War
-The policies that say loud and clear to all in the ME that the US is only concerned about the ME because of its oil reserves and will do anything to retain access to them (see all of the above)
CATO perspective on US/ME relations
ZMag timeline
Wiki article on Human rights in Saudi Arabia
Iran-Iraq War

This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by Hyroglyphx, posted 09-19-2006 11:27 AM Hyroglyphx has replied

Replies to this message:
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Jaderis
Member (Idle past 3425 days)
Posts: 622
From: NY,NY
Joined: 06-16-2006


Message 92 of 150 (350454)
09-19-2006 6:42 PM
Reply to: Message 67 by Hyroglyphx
09-19-2006 3:10 PM


Re: A general reply
Uh-huh, and how does this mean that the US doesn't have right to prosecute those enemies, both foreign and domestic?
So torture, war and the killing of innocent civilians that it entails are now being called prosecution? Where the hell have I been?
Yes, we have the right to defend ourselves and to prosecute those who wish to harm us, but that right does not include torture, detaining people indefinitely without charges (essentially disappearing them), hiding evidence from the person being prosecuted, spying on civilians, etc. Bush is trying to make it so US military and the CIA and FBI can use these tactics (legally anyway) and not be tried for war crimes. This should be outrageous to anyone who truly believes that the Constitution was written to protect the people from acts such as this, protecting due process, privacy, security against unreasonable search and seizure and cruel and unusual punishment. trial by jury and so on.
If we give up on these things most essential to our liberty then what the hell are we fighting for??
NYTimes article on a Canadian, Maher Arar, who was wrongfully detained, imprisoned and tortured for 10 months in a secret prison in Syria.
Edited by Jaderis, : to add link
Edited by Jaderis, : fixed link

This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by Hyroglyphx, posted 09-19-2006 3:10 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied

  
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 93 of 150 (350455)
09-19-2006 6:42 PM
Reply to: Message 67 by Hyroglyphx
09-19-2006 3:10 PM


Re: A general reply
quote:
The US along with EVERY nation that has ever been on planet earth seeks to further its interests
Heh. If EVERY nation jumped off a tall building should the US do so as well?
At any rate, even if we accept that people and/or institutions have the right to further their own interests, those of us who live in civilized societies recognize that there are limits to the interests that may legitimately be furthered. For example, when ones interests confict with another's, then there should be clear and non-arbitrary standards by which to decide whose interests, if either's, takes precedence. That is why you don't have the unlimited right to just take what you want from other people and murder anyone who gets in your way. There is a limit to your interests that may be legitimately furthered.
-
quote:
give me instances where it has affected other people so profoundly that they are granted the unalienable right to murder innocent, unsuspecting people?
What's the problem? You seem to think that the US and EVERY nation has the right to further their interests, and the implication of your replies is that their are no limits to this. Surely, then, you would recognize that other people have the right to further their interests without limit, even when their interests are furthered by murdering other people.
But maybe this isn't what you are saying. When you ratchet up the hyperbole like that, it's hard to tell what you are really trying to say.
-
quote:
It sounds almost as if you sympathize with expressed goal of Islamofascism.
Heh. Yeah, I hate freedom.
-
quote:
and how does this mean that the US doesn't have right to prosecute those enemies, both foreign and domestic?
I don't think I ever said any such thing. I am merely pointing out that there are limits to how one may protect oneself. There are standards which must be used to determine how serious a threat the "enemy" is and who the "enemy" really is, and it is considered important among civilized peoples that the response to one's enemies be appropriate to the threat.
-
quote:
the US gov't, (who is entirely comprised of US citizens)
Actually, the US government, like all governments, exists as a tool to further the interests of the ruling class. In the case of the US government (and, to a lesser extent, the other Western "democracies"), the citizens are given just barely enough control over the levers of power to give the illusion that they are the ones in charge.
-
quote:
the US gov't, (who is entirely comprised of US citizens) seek to destroy other US citizens who realize their own freedoms?
That is pretty much it. US citizens who want to realize their freedoms are a threat to the ruling classes.
-
quote:
Some people mistake 'freedom' to mean an abolition of all rules as they unleash themselves in an unfettered form of squalid behavior.
That may be true. However, many of us, especially on the left, recognize that "freedom" means the right to live our lives in peace, and to have some measure of control over the forces that affect our lives. It is this notion of freedom, however, that is such a threat to those that the current administration represents.

"The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one." -- George Bernard Shaw

This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by Hyroglyphx, posted 09-19-2006 3:10 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied

  
kuresu
Member (Idle past 2512 days)
Posts: 2544
From: boulder, colorado
Joined: 03-24-2006


Message 94 of 150 (350458)
09-19-2006 6:48 PM
Reply to: Message 91 by Jaderis
09-19-2006 6:27 PM


Re: A general reply
don't forget the unforgivable crime of putting our soldiers in Saudia Arabia during the first gulf war. Oh my god, they've put infidels on holy soil. It's one of the bigger reasons Osama has, especially if yuo consider al-Queda to be an at least partly religious movement.
and then there's the good old standby--you attack those who are strong, who are powerful. Those who are strong, powerful, breed resentment from those who aren't. And put simply, the US is powerful. Henceforth, we are the number one target. You don't hate, you don't attack Belgium. They aren't powerful. You hate the US, you attack the US, because it is powerful.
(oh, and power is more than just military power, but that's a pretty good chunk of it).

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This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 96 by Legend, posted 09-19-2006 7:08 PM kuresu has replied

  
Legend
Member (Idle past 5005 days)
Posts: 1226
From: Wales, UK
Joined: 05-07-2004


Message 95 of 150 (350461)
09-19-2006 6:53 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by Hyroglyphx
09-19-2006 11:27 AM


Re: A general reply
nemesis writes:
What aggressive action did the US do to any Arab or Muslim nation to justify the Khobar towers, World Trade Center towers, the USS Cole, etc?
The US has directly and indirectly interfered with the internal affairs of a number of Muslim countries and people starting with its one-sided support for the state of Israel (beginning in the 1940s), which many Arab states feel is a threat to their very existence (imagine, if you will, how Americans felt for countries that supported the Soviet Union at the height of the Cold War and multiply it by ten)
Ofcourse the latest shiny example is when they recently invaded a Muslim country that posed absolutely no threat to the US killing (and still are) tens of thousands of Muslims in the process. I dread to even think how many thousands of Bin Ladens this war created.
It's all in the history books. Or do you seriously think that a bunch of Muslim fanatics just woke up one morning thinking "what shall we do today...I know, let's go kill some Americans!"
nemesis writes:
As for your 'civilian attacks' that's about as simple as asking whether or not the IRA was comprised of innocent civilians
The emphasis here is not on 'civilian' but on 'unprovoked'. The IRA bombings, however despicable, were provoked by British government actions. The 9/11 attacks, however horrendous, had been provoked by US foreign policy over the last four decades.
The future terrorist attacks that we (US & UK) will have on our soil will be tragic, detestable and will have been provoked by what we're doing now in Iraq.

"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."

This message is a reply to:
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Legend
Member (Idle past 5005 days)
Posts: 1226
From: Wales, UK
Joined: 05-07-2004


Message 96 of 150 (350464)
09-19-2006 7:08 PM
Reply to: Message 94 by kuresu
09-19-2006 6:48 PM


Re: A general reply
Kuresu writes:
and then there's the good old standby--you attack those who are strong, who are powerful. Those who are strong, powerful, breed resentment from those who aren't. And put simply, the US is powerful. Henceforth, we are the number one target.
Oh my God!!
You do believe that a bunch of Muslims just woke up one morning thinking "what shall we do today...I know, let's go kill some Americans!" !!!
Kuresu writes:
You don't hate, you don't attack Belgium. They aren't powerful. You hate the US, you attack the US, because it is powerful.
??!!!
You don't attack Belgium because Belgium doesn't interfere with your government.
You don't attack Belgium because Belgium doesn't want to control your petrol through their own cartels and sell it on their own terms.
You don't attack Belgium because Belgium doesn't give money and arms to your number-one enemy
You don't attack Belgium because Belgium doesn't invade your country and torture your citizens.
You don't attack Belgium because Belgium minds its own fucking business and lets you mind your own.
That's why you don't attack fucking Belgium !!

"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 94 by kuresu, posted 09-19-2006 6:48 PM kuresu has replied

Replies to this message:
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jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 97 of 150 (350465)
09-19-2006 7:08 PM


Can we head back towards the neighborhood of the topic please?
The question is :
outside of the insanity world of Kafkas The Trial is there anyway to justify trying someone without telling them what the evidence is against them?
How crazy can our government get?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Replies to this message:
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Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3911 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 98 of 150 (350469)
09-19-2006 7:16 PM
Reply to: Message 97 by jar
09-19-2006 7:08 PM


Re: Can we head back towards the neighborhood of the topic please?
It is simply one of a number of evidences listed so far that show how our current administration purposfully disregards the Constitution at any turn.
I fully believe that if they could somehow link secularization to terrorism that they would also summarily ignore the establishment clause. They have done nothing to suggest otherwise and many things to suggest that given the opportunity they would turn this nation into a theocracy.
The only thing I would say about this particular violation among others is that it is more severe in its impact. If I had to rank the right to privacy and the right to due process, due process wins every time.
I might be able to live, if uncomfortably, without privacy. I CANNOT live without due process. The lack of due process removes ALL other freedoms.

Of course, biblical creationists are committed to belief in God's written Word, the Bible, which forbids bearing false witness; --AIG (lest they forget)

This message is a reply to:
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kuresu
Member (Idle past 2512 days)
Posts: 2544
From: boulder, colorado
Joined: 03-24-2006


Message 99 of 150 (350470)
09-19-2006 7:29 PM
Reply to: Message 96 by Legend
09-19-2006 7:08 PM


Re: A general reply
at the risk of continuing being OT:
I do not believe that the muslims woke up one day and decided to attack us. I'm just saying that as we are the most powerful (for now at any rate, and even that's questionable) nation on the planet. Never mind. Let me ask you this: do you resent those that have more power than you? If you could, would you knock them down a bit, or more?
All the other stuff you mentioned are good reasons, and don't forget, I did include the religious one--heathens on holy soil. It's just that this can't be ignored either--it's not just muslim terrorists against us. North Korea and Iran (now, at any rate) are against us. And probably some people I don't know about. And sure, they've got legitimate reasons to be against us. But deep down, on some level, it boils down to resentment--they've got more power, they've got more resources, they're richer, they're better off, and damn it, we just can't stand it.

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Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 100 of 150 (350477)
09-19-2006 8:34 PM
Reply to: Message 88 by Jazzns
09-19-2006 5:07 PM


USC Title 18 subsection 2079
Well NJ I did read it and it didn't take all that long.
It was 120 pages of information, much of it referencing other cases and statutes critical in providing an overall analysis for this particular case. Please don't make it out to be something one could just traipse through and I also have serious doubt as to whether or not most people even read it because it is 120 pages long.
Specifics are in the previous post. It is hard to copy and paste from a scanned PDF.
But it isn't difficult to give me the specifics on what the allegation was on, instead of having me read the entire thing. The charge is that the USC Title 18, SS 2709 implicitly goes against the 4th Am rights from unreasonable search and seizure, both that have been advanced well before the Patriot Act. The final judgement was that the FBI was attempting to obtain this information clandestinely when it did not need to obtain it from "Doe's" ISP address. It was stated by the Court that the information the FBI sought was already a public domain and that essentially it was uneccesary to covertly retrieve said information. It should also be made known that "Doe" was never in any trouble with law enforcement personell at any time. This isn't like Doe was ever attacked or harassed by the US gov't. The FBI simply wanted records, all of which are sealed so I don't know exactly what they sought.
you are wrong that the ACLU filed as John Doe. The GOVERNMENT ASKED that the identity of the plaintiff be hidden and the court granted.
Yeah, I saw that after reading the document. Thanks. I guess the government isn't so bad afterall, aye.
Just because someone didn't distill the information for you into small words does not mean the burden of your request was not met.
It wasn't met. In this particular case a certain field office of the FBI, that was not cased, conducted an investigation that went against the 4th Am and that their obtainment of said information was declared to have been garnered unconsitutionally. I found where the US Title 18 was compiled and changes made after the initiation of the Patriot Act on those Titles.
I'll note that you also have yet to admit that you were wrong for dismissing the sources because they were "from the ACLU".
Okay, I hastily stated that it 'came from' the ACLU. Poor choice of words on my part. My deepest apologies.

"There is not in all America a more dangerous trait than the deification of mere smartness unaccompanied by any sense of moral responsibility." -Theodore Roosevelt

This message is a reply to:
 Message 88 by Jazzns, posted 09-19-2006 5:07 PM Jazzns has replied

Replies to this message:
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Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 101 of 150 (350479)
09-19-2006 9:03 PM
Reply to: Message 90 by kuresu
09-19-2006 6:17 PM


Re: A general reply
this is what I've been arguing about. Those so-called communist nations AREN'T LEFTIST. leftist ideology entails eqalitarian concepts--everybody is equal, period.
Hang on, let me make sure I'm getting this straight. Basically, whenever a nation or system that does anything that could be construed as negative aren't Leftist by your default plan, even when all their stated ideals, goals, and programs elucidate leftist idealogies, they aren't in fact apart of "the Left?"
For the record I understand what you mean, but apparently you miss the obvious that what you are saying is completely incorrect as you set yourself up in a very safe position as an afterthought.
If you have a system that favors one over the other, that system, by it's very own nation, can't be leftist. Those "communist" nations favor party members over the rest of the populace--the best example (though fictional) is 1984 and Animal Farm.
So no, it's not ironic that leftists are decrying the loss of liberties (especially if you include the classical liberals, which are to the left), because the "communist" nations aren't, and weren't, leftist. sheez
Of course they are and no amount verbal contortion is going to change that fact embedded in history. You are making it so that "Left" means "good, fair, and impartial." That's absurd. And to make the connection of how that's incorrect and biased, some have found it objectionable that certain Christians speak about "real Christians," and that their interpretation of who is a real Christian and who isn't comes directly from their ability to parcel it but not anyone else's. Does that make sense?

"There is not in all America a more dangerous trait than the deification of mere smartness unaccompanied by any sense of moral responsibility." -Theodore Roosevelt

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 102 of 150 (350492)
09-19-2006 9:38 PM
Reply to: Message 91 by Jaderis
09-19-2006 6:27 PM


Re: A general reply
I suppose you think that America is completely untainted and anything that it (meaning policies carried out by its government) has done is sanctioned by God as its divine right, so therefore, it can do no wrong.
Uhh, no, I don't think that. And I'm aware that the US has engaged in certain things that tarnish its history.
Why don't you learn a little history first instead of blindly defending some very abhorrent policy.
Likewise.
Continuing US support and arming of Israel (when your family is killed by US made bombs you might be a little peeved, dontcha think?) wars against Arab states and US willingness to ignore the nuclear threat Israel poses (they've never signed the Nuclear Non-proliferation Treaty and haven't allowed inspections of the nuclear facilities since the 1960's)
The US has every right to defend and support a nation that shares similar visions of Democracy in a middle east that predominantly despises such notions. As for being bombed by US missles is the same as getting shot by Russian-made weaponry in Iraq and blaming the Russians for it. You also need to realize who is getting 'bombed.' I think you've been duped by the unending distortions propagated by Pallywood and Hezbollywood.
-US support (past and present) of authoritarian/human rights abusing regimes in Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Iran (under the pro-US shah), Jordan, Bahrain, Kuwait, etc
There were human rights abuses in Iraq where the US intervened and supplanted the Hussein regime but that didn't seem to make anyone happier about the US. This is yet another case of damned if we do, damned if we don't. Whenever the US intervenes the charge almost always seem to condemn the US for sticking their nose where it doesn't belong, but then when it doesn't intervene, the charge is that America is heartless. Really, what exactly should the US do to make the Muslim nations happy?
-The Iran-Iraq war
What about the Iran-Iraq war?
-The 1991 Persian Gulf War
Uh, Iraq invaded a Muslim nation called "Kuwait" because he wanted to control it. The US signed a treaty with Kuwait years before granting the Kuwaitis protection for continuing to support us through oil. So, please explain to me how this offended the Muslim world? You know, I kind of think that not honoring our part of the agreement would make the US more suspect in regards to its offenses to Muslim nations.
The policies that say loud and clear to all in the ME that the US is only concerned about the ME because of its oil reserves and will do anything to retain access to them (see all of the above)
Oh, yes, that evil US who is only interested in the ME for oil, because France, Germany, Canada, the UK, Sweden, Norway, Japan, the Phillipines, and so on care about the ME for reasons other than oil? Please tell me when the moment a nation was allowed to secure its interests. Why do you condemn the US and implicate the US as the sole proprietor for the world's problems.
Here's the bottom line: Terrorism will not stop until Islamofascism is removed from the general population of Muslims or until the US becomes a Muslim nation. That has been cited by numerous factions in the MidEast.

"There is not in all America a more dangerous trait than the deification of mere smartness unaccompanied by any sense of moral responsibility." -Theodore Roosevelt

This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by Jaderis, posted 09-19-2006 6:27 PM Jaderis has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 103 by kuresu, posted 09-19-2006 9:57 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied
 Message 112 by Jaderis, posted 09-20-2006 1:14 AM Hyroglyphx has not replied
 Message 114 by Chiroptera, posted 09-20-2006 10:00 AM Hyroglyphx has not replied

  
kuresu
Member (Idle past 2512 days)
Posts: 2544
From: boulder, colorado
Joined: 03-24-2006


Message 103 of 150 (350503)
09-19-2006 9:57 PM
Reply to: Message 102 by Hyroglyphx
09-19-2006 9:38 PM


Re: A general reply
one tiny nitpick for now:
Terrorism will not stop until Islamofascism is removed from the general population of Muslims or until the US becomes a Muslim nation.
there you go again with blanket statements. Is McVeigh not a terrorist? Is the IRA not terrorist? there are more than just the muslim terrorists in this world. You're last sentence doesn't qualify the word terrorist, only that those in the ME say until the US is a mulsim nation, or whatever, terrorism will continue. They didn't pick brand or religion or cause. hmm . . .

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nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 104 of 150 (350504)
09-19-2006 10:00 PM
Reply to: Message 49 by Legend
09-18-2006 6:00 PM


Re: A general reply
quote:
Speed may compound the effects of an accident but it very rarely by itself contributes to its cause.
Got some facts to back that up? I'd like to know if this is true.
And anyway, my point still stands; driving slower leads to less bodily harm and loss of life.
quote:
Excessively low speed limits are just another way of exercising control over minute details of people's lives while reinforcing the Big Brother mentality that it's all for our own good.
Who said anything about "excessively" slow speed limits?

This message is a reply to:
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nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 105 of 150 (350513)
09-19-2006 10:33 PM
Reply to: Message 58 by Hyroglyphx
09-19-2006 12:12 PM


Re: A general reply
quote:
The US or ANY nation does not begin to spy on its citizens without some sort of reason to do so.
"Some sort of reason"?
Sure, there's always "some sort of reason" to spy on people.
Do you trust every single person who is currently or who will ever come into such power to not ever abuse it, not even once?
If you do, you are painfully naive and have not learned the lessons of the Revolutionary War at all.
quote:
The people who think they are being watched either are because they are into some bad stuff or they have delusions of granduer and think that they are really special and that the gov't really cares whether or not they masturbate.
We know that the government spies on political activists.
We know that the government spies on civil rights activists.
We know that the government spies on journalists.
We know that the government spies on its political enemies.
All this has been done with oversight by Congress or the Courts.
The Patriot Act removes most or all of this oversight.
Do you really think that nobody has, nor will ever in the future, abuse this power, knowing that they will never be held accountable by Congress or the Courts?
Think of the liberal politician you detest the most. Now, imagine them with the power of the Patriot Act. Still feel OK about it?

"Science is like a blabbermouth who ruins a movie by telling you how it ends! Well I say there are some things we don't want to know! Important things!"
- Ned Flanders
"Question with boldness even the existence of God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear." - Thomas Jefferson

This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by Hyroglyphx, posted 09-19-2006 12:12 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

Replies to this message:
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