Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 64 (9163 total)
3 online now:
Newest Member: ChatGPT
Post Volume: Total: 916,421 Year: 3,678/9,624 Month: 549/974 Week: 162/276 Day: 2/34 Hour: 2/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   YHWH, Yahweh, Jehovah, adonai, lord, elohim, god, allah, Allah thread.
Fist of Fury
Inactive Member


Message 166 of 298 (323901)
06-20-2006 1:34 PM
Reply to: Message 165 by Fist of Fury
06-20-2006 1:23 PM


Also:
The following is a refutation of the al-ilah contraction theory and the allegation that Allah was a moon god (If this be then all Arabic speaking Jews and Christians will go to hell) Since Robert Morey Book Islamic Invasion is the leading propaganda on this topic we will use him as a bases of refutation.
We have had the pleasure in reading his book called "Islamic Invasion". However his arguement was unheard of before his book was published. His sources that he quotes, that he misquoted and twisted out of their context, support no such allegation of his.
What Morey did was took various sources of information to asert a theory in the following.
1) The name (Allah) is linguistically, not etymologically, said to be in theory a contraction of the two Arabic words "al ilah" that means "the god or The G-d".
2) In Arabian pagan worship there was a supreme Idol called by the names Sin, Nanna, and Hubul which was known as a moon deity.
3) This moon god was given the designated title "al ilah"
4) the moon god was worshipped in Makkah at the Ka'abah known as Hubul
5) the symbol of Islam is the Crescent
6) the symbol of the moon god was the crescent
These are Morey's foundation to his arguement that he tied togther in his so called detective work.
Unfortunately Morey was not the scholar that people thought he was. His research was not researched at which his prejudice thinking lead him to propagate something that was not. Also to remind everyone that the PHD label which was nicely advertised on his book was not a PHD in world theology or Middles Eastern research.
We would, with gratitude, show the flaws in Morey's reseach.
1) The name (Allah) is linguistically, not etymologically, said to be in theory a contraction of the two Arabic words "al ilah" that means "the god or The G-d"....
3) This moon god was given the designated title "al ilah"
Morey quoted atleast 5 references to prove the name Allah is a contraction of the two Arabic words "al ilah". His reference, except for one, where all christian sources. Not one of his sources or reference was of an Arabic scholar or Arabic lexicon.
His one source that was not christian derived, and is the oldest and most strongest source was the Brittanica. His quote of the Britanica omitted terms from its context to make it a reality.
Britannica wrote: (Arabic: “God”), the one and only God in the religion of Islam. Etymologically, the name Allah is probably a contraction of the Arabic al-Ilah, “the God.” The name's origin can be traced back to the earliest Semitic writings in which the word for god was Il or El, the latter being an Old Testament synonym for Yahweh. Allah is the standard Arabic word for “God” and is used by Arab Christians as well as by Muslims.
The words in bold Morey ommited and in his dictation ignoring the rest of the authority base, misleading his readers to think the Britannica , his strongest source, supported his allegation of a contraction. However the Britannica strickley states a "probability" not a fact or reality.
Morey did not have the ardacity to quote an Arabic scholar or an Arabic Lexicon even those authored by Christians them selves.
On the contrary, Arabic scholars and Lexicon works do not support a contraction. Also the negation for such a contraction is as follows.
“Alllaah” Not a contraction
The English customary spelling “Allah” syllable as “al - lah” in English dictionaries and encyclopedias has often been misrepresented as to its etymology or nature of the word without any Arabic authoritive sources such as Arabic Dictionaries, Lexicons, or Arabic Scholars them selves. Due to its English customary spelling it is often viewed by western writers that the English transliterated letters “a,l,l,a,h” are a contraction of two Arabic words based on a linguistical prestige (in English not Arabic). Thus being ignorant of the fact, and the language it self, that the second “L” in Arabic script called “laam” is a double consonant letter. The first two letters “al” is perceived as the definite article (the), and the three following letters “laah” ( sometimes rendered in English as “lah” ) is the contracted Arabic word “ilaah (deity)” where the weak radical “a”, in Arabic called “alif” - pronounced as an “i” in “ilaah”, is dropped for a contraction.
Example:
1) al ilah (the deity)
2) al lah
3) al-lah
4) Allah
Based on this western hypothesis, and its manipulative fraudulent philosophy which is misleading, the word is assumed to mean ”the god’ or ”the deity’ denoting the supreme deity out of others as the main one. The double consonant “L”(laam) in the original Arabic has been edited in English exegesis of the word as a single consonant giving it a linguistical prestige in English as an “al ilah” contraction. This reason because, the double consonant “L”, which would be properly spelled with three L’s(Alllah) serves no purpose in English as it does in Arabic. If the customary English spelling of the name it self is transliterated back into Arabic it would spell “ alif, laam, laam, fatah, ha” reading “allah(a)” (Note: This word in Arabic has NO article) which would be a different word in Arabic meaning “Deification” whereas the name in its original Arabic is spelled as “alif, laam, laam, laam, alif maqsoorah, ha’a” reading “alllaah”. On the other hand, a contraction of the words “al-ilah” is not possible in the Arabic language because the grammar behind it does no permit it as will be shown in the reality of the words in their original language which have been manipulated in English. In The Arabic language when the second radical letter of a word is doubled, by stressing it, it either enhances the word or changes its meaning all together. When the Arabic word “ilaah”(deity) is pronounced as “illaah” by stressing its second radical consonant “L” to double “ll” it changes the meaning from “deity” to “except him” where the “h” consonant is converted into a masculine suffix pronoun. With the contraction theory of “al ilah” applied in Arabic, rather than in English, the second radical letter “L” in the Arabic word “ilaah” is doubled when the “i”(alif kasrah) is dropped to take the word “al” in order to contract “al” and “lah” in the Arabic language.
EXAMPLE:
1) al ilaah
2) al-llaah
3) alllaah
Such an etymological contraction is not possible in the Arabic language in which the word would be meaningless therefore prohibited .
Alllaah Not A Title
The name however is never used or demonstrated in the Quran or Arabic literature as a title. As an attribute of and reference to Alllah surah(chapter) 114 ayah(verse) 3 in the Quran says: “ilahinnas” ~ God of mankind, which negates the existence of another deity for mankind to be worshiped.
In the Quranic Arabic text the word “ilaah”(deity) does not take a nunnation for an indefinite article to indicate “a deity of mankind”, nor the definite article(the) that would denote Alllaah as being the deity out of other deities.
If the name Alllaah in the Arabic language was understood as “the deity” the attribute “ilahinnas”~ God of mankind would of said “ilahin annas” taking the nunnation(in) to mean “A deity of mankind” or “al ilahinnas” with the definite article(the) to mean “The god of mankind” which would of corroborated with the name Alllah if it was understood or meant “ the deity” or “the god”.
However such a gross statement or its like demonstration is no where to be found in the Quran text or Arabic literature in reference to Alllaah In support, the renown testimony and article of faith in islam which is repetitively mentioned in the Quran as:
Laa ilaaha illaa alllah “There is no God except Alllah”
Maa min ilaahin illaa alllah “there is not a single deity(or other God) except Alllah”
If the name meant “the god” it would not have been used in such a statement, because “laa ilaaha illaa al ilaah ~ there is no God except the god”, and “ maa min ilahin illaa al ilaah ~ there is not a single deity(or God) except the god” is improper Arabic, absurd, and a contradiction to it self, whereas the name Alllaah would not have been possible to be used in such a statement in the Arabic language.
Alllaah No Definite Article
The name “Alllaah” in the Quranic Arabic text (and Arabic literature) is written in various grammatical forms which has been overlooked much less ignored by critics of the Islamic due to there lack of knowledge of the Arabic language.
These grammatical forms are: “lillaah”, “Alllaahumma”, “yaa Alllaah”, and “aalllaah”, which determine the nature of the word in Arabic. A noun prefixed with a definite article in Arabic cannot take an additional affix of a “yaa” vocative particle, a “m”(meem) magnifying particle, or a hamza’a interrogative particle, whereas the name Alllaah in many parts the Quran and in Arabic literature is found prefixed with a “yaa” vocative particle ~ “yaa Alllaah”, suffixed with a magnifying particle ~ “Alllaahumma”, and prefixed with an interrogative “hamza” particle ~ “aalllaah”. For example with the prefixed interrogative “hamza” in particle in 10:59 of the Quran
...Qul aalllaahu adhina lakum.
“Say(Muhammad)! Alllaah permitted you ?”
If “al” in the name Alllah was a definite article (the) the prefixing of the “hamza” particle instead of using the interrogative particle “hal” would not be possible or permitted, because the hamza interrogative particle prefixed to the name would have changed “al” to mean, people, folk, or family, as the Arabic word “aal” denotes rather than introducing the name into an interrogative. Thus it would have been meaningless and not used in such grammar.
The preceding ‘ = a consonant letter called “alif” is the uniform of the word in Arabic which is silent when the name is read suffixly to another word such as: ‘‘‘‘’’’ = abdu alllaah ~ servant of Alllaah, is read as “Abdullaah”, or the ‘ = a is absent all together in the possessive form of the word as ’’’ = lillaah where the ’’ = li denotes the possessive meaning: to, belonging to, or for, which is not a prefix to the word in Arabic.
In ’’’ = lillaah , the possessive form of the word ‘’’’ = Alllaah there is no written nor non written assimilated definite article, in which such a clusterized transitional reading of the word would be impossible in the Arabic language if there was a definite article.
The ’’‘’ = llaah is the suffix form transition of the word ‘’’’ = Alllaah by the ’’ = li conversion of its first “L” consonant for the possessive, in which a noun with a definite article cannot be suffixed to ’’ = li. Only ’’ = li can be prefixed to the article( al = the ) it self which is prefixed to a noun or an adjective word such as : al-quddus ~ The Holy One, with ’’ = li prefixed to it as : lil-quddus ~ to the Holy One.
Hence, if “al” in Alllah was a definite article “li” could only be prefixed to it as “li-alllah” not as “lillaah” which would lose the article. The possessive form of the name as “lillaah” confirms that there is no “ilaah ~ deity” word contracted in the name, because the doubling of the second radical “L” consonant, as we said before ,of the contracted word “ilaah” with the dropped “i” for “laah” (as alleged) with the possessive “li” for “li-(i)llaah” would change the meaning of “ilaah ~ deity” to except he or it . Thus is meaningless and would be prohibited in Arabic because it would be absurd and making no sense whereas the possessive form “lillaah” of the name Alllaah would not be possible if such an etymological contraction of “al ilaah” existed.
Even so, an assimilated non written definite article is only possible with “li” when it is prefixed to a noun or adjective word with a “FIRST” radical “L” consonant in this case which is doubled by the prefixing of “li” to assimilate a definite article such as “lateef ~ most gentle” with “li” prefixed to it as “lillateef ~ to the Most Gentle(one)” which is the possessive form of “al-llateef ~ The Most Gentle(one).
To the contrary the un-doubled form of the part “llaah” without “li” is “laah(u)” which means “not him” that is not a noun or adjective but a phrase where as “li” cannot be a prefixed to it wherefore to assimilate a definite article. Therefore, the only possible way the word Alllaah in the Arabic language could take the possessive word “li”, if it had a definite article, or even if it was a contraction of “al ilaah”, would be “li-alllaah”. However ! There is no such thing and is remote there from.
The part “llaah” is only the suffix form transition of the word Alllaah by the “li” conversion of its first “L” consonant to make it a possessive noun. The double “Ls” of “llaah” in the Arabic language are inseparable in which “llaah” is the foundation of the name arabicized as Alllaah that engulfs much linguistical unlimited divine meaning.
These various forms characterize the word of being an ARABICIZED name , whereas with the form " Alllaahumma " being suffixed with the "meem" magnifying particle indicating the vocative and singular royal plural which cannot be used with no other word in the arabic language, clearly tells us that this Name is older than the Arabic language it self being derived from a former and more ancient language which constituted such a grammatical character which does not exist in the Arabic Language as we know it today with any other word.
Another example is how the Name never takes Noonation or Tanween. These are grammatical endings such as "un" "an" "in" which are not used with Arabicized words that are not originally arabic derived.
Such is the folly blunder of the “al ilaah ~ the god” contraction probability of the name Alllaah by western writers who have exploited it as a reality and were morless ignorant of the Arabic language and its nature of grammar to ascribe such a thing but followed their own invented imagination affected by prejudice which was mere and fictitious conjecture.
Also. In Arabic there are many words that begin with “al” such as “alyasa” where “al” is not a definite article. “alyasa” is the arabicized form of the Hebrew name “Elisha”
"Lord of the heavens and the earth and what is between them both, so serve Him (alone) and be patient in His worship. Do you know any worthy of His (Alllaah’s) name ? [Qur'an 19:65]"
2) In Arabian pagan worship there was a supreme Idol called by the names Sin, Nanna, and Hubul which was known as a moon deity.
One of Morey's grave error here as he did not study the theology of the moon god which was called by various names Sin, Nanna, or Hubul in different parts of Arabia is the geneology of the pagan dieties.
In Makkah the moon god was called Hubul. Hubul was the son of Al-Uzza - whom was one of the daughters of Alllaah. Thus in pagan ideology Hubul would be the grandson of Alllaah [ma'aadhallah] and not Alllah him self.
More to add to this Hubul was not the supreme Idol at Makkah among the Idols. It was Al-Uzza, Manat, and Allat whom where designated al-aalihat ~ the plural femine of al-ilah.
Muhammad (s.a.w.) preached against the worship of the moon or the sun god in Makkah.
Among His Signs are the Night and the Day, and the Sun and the Moon. Adore not the sun and the moon, but adore Allah, Who created them, if it is Him ye wish to serve. 41:37
Allah could not be seen
No vision can grasp Him(Allah). But His grasp is over all vision: He is above all comprehension, yet is acquainted with all things. (Koran 6:103) He(Allah) is the First and the Last, the Evident and the Hidden: and He has full knowledge of all things. 57:3
Hubal the moon-god and Allah were not the same God
Sahih Al-Bukhari Volumn 005, Book 059, Hadith Number 375.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Narated By Al-Bara : We faced the pagans on that day (of the battle of Uhud) and the Prophet placed a batch of archers (at a special place) and appointed 'Abdullah (bin Jubair) as their commander and said, "Do not leave this place; and if you should see us conquering the enemy, do not leave this place, and if you should see them conquering us, do not (come to) help us," So, when we faced the enemy, they took to their heel till I saw their women running towards the mountain, lifting up their clothes from their legs, revealing their leg-bangles. The Muslims started saying, "The booty, the booty!" 'Abdullah bin Jubair said, "The Prophet had taken a firm promise from me not to leave this place." But his companions refused (to stay). So when they refused (to stay there), (Allah) confused them so that they could not know where to go, and they suffered seventy casualties. Abu Sufyan ascended a high place and said, "Is Muhammad present amongst the people?" The Prophet said, "Do not answer him." Abu Sufyan said, "Is the son of Abu Quhafa present among the people?" The Prophet said, "Do not answer him." Abd Sufyan said, "Is the son of Al-Khattab amongst the people?" He then added, "All these people have been killed, for, were they alive, they would have replied." On that, 'Umar could not help saying, "You are a liar, O enemy of Allah! Allah has kept what will make you unhappy." Abu Safyan said, "Superior may be Hubal!" On that the Prophet said (to his companions), "Reply to him." They asked, "What may we say?" He said, "Say: Allah is More Elevated and More Majestic!" Abu Sufyan said, "We have (the idol) Al-'Uzza, whereas you have no 'Uzza!" The Prophet said (to his companions), "Reply to him." They said, "What may we say?" The Prophet said, "Say: Allah is our Helper and you have no helper." Abu Sufyan said, "(This) day compensates for our loss at Badr and (in) the battle (the victory) is always undecided and shared in turns by the belligerents. You will see some of your dead men mutilated, but neither did I urge this action, nor am I sorry for it." Narrated Jabir: Some people took wine in the morning of the day of Uhud and were then killed as martyrs.
The following is Quranic support to the above hadeeth that Hubul and Alllaah where not the same deity.
The Pagans could not see Allah
[17:90] They(the pagans) say: "We shall not believe in thee(Muhammad), until thou cause a spring to gush forth for us from the earth,
[17:91] "Or (until) thou have a garden of date trees and vines, and cause rivers to gush forth in their midst, carrying abundant water,
[17:92] "Or thou cause the sky to fall in pieces, as thou sayest (will happen), against us, or thou bring Allah and the angels before (us) face to face;
[2:210] Will they(the pagans) wait until Allah comes to them in canopies of clouds, with angels (in His train) and the question is (thus) settled? But to Allah do all questions go back (for decision).
Allah not recognized as one of the Idols by the pagans
[29:17] "For you (pagans) do worship idols besides Allah, and ye invent falsehood. The things that ye worship besides Allah have no power to give you sustenance: then seek ye sustenance from Allah, serve Him, and be grateful to Him: to Him will be your return.
Muhammad declared to the pagans they do not worship what him and his followers worshiped (Allah)
Say(Muhammad to the pagans): O ye that reject Faith! I(Muhammad) worship not that which ye worship, Nor will ye worship that which I worship, And I will not worship that which ye have been wont to worship, Nor will ye worship that which I worship, To you be your Way, and to me mine. (Koran 109:1-6)
And for the very last thing that Morey closed up with in his book.
5) the symbol of Islam is the Crescent
6) the symbol of the moon god was the crescent
Again Morey never did his history seach he just jumped to conclusions. The Crescent symbol in Islam was adopted from the rule of the Ottoman empire which was originally a Turkish symbol http://www.fotw.net/flags/islam.html . The original symbol of Islam is what you see in my avatar in the above left corner of our post as a flag. (Oxy2Hydro 22:57, 23 May 2005 (UTC))

This message is a reply to:
 Message 165 by Fist of Fury, posted 06-20-2006 1:23 PM Fist of Fury has not replied

  
macnietspingal
Inactive Member


Message 167 of 298 (349729)
09-17-2006 3:02 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Buzsaw
10-05-2003 9:06 PM


Todah Rabah for your research in Koran
I knew if I googled someone would have done the research. I don't know Arabic but I do know Hebrew so I just wondered if the actual Qu'Ran uses "Lord" or some form of YHWH. I don't trust anyone who tells me what a textbook says. I hope you know Arabic. If so, what is the Arabic word for "lord"? All searches in English translations do not tell the truth about my bible texts: TaNaCH, Apocrypha, New Testament, Koran. No one can fool me in English, Hebrew, Spanish but they can in Arabic. So I can never trust a Muslim for what the Qu'Ran says. I don't have to trust a Jew or Christian, even an Israeli or the Vatican because with a dictionary I can KNOW. So can any person with this language knowledge. Seems like the military won't let the soldiers know the truth while they are in the Middle East. I asked someone why. They said they don't want our soldiers to think. Well, in Israel, the soldiers all think. They can argue about the bible in Hebrew, the original language of everyone's monotheistic God.
I do know this and can't understand all the horrible fighting:
Koran,
[2:113]
The Jews said, "The Christians have no basis," while the
Christians said, "The Jews have no basis." Yet, both of
them read the scripture. Such are the utterances of those
who possess no knowledge. GOD will judge them on the Day
of Resurrection, regarding their disputes.
=================================
BTW, no one asks a Muslim what are the "scriptures" that these verses refer
to. The "scriptures" that are the source of the "utterances"?
Well, it must be the following:
[3:50]
"I confirm previous scripture - the Torah - and I revoke
certain prohibitions imposed upon you. I come to you with
sufficient proof from your Lord. Therefore, you shall
observe GOD, and obey me.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Buzsaw, posted 10-05-2003 9:06 PM Buzsaw has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 168 by AdminPD, posted 09-17-2006 5:28 AM macnietspingal has not replied
 Message 169 by arachnophilia, posted 09-17-2006 6:06 PM macnietspingal has replied

  
AdminPD
Inactive Administrator


Message 168 of 298 (349742)
09-17-2006 5:28 AM
Reply to: Message 167 by macnietspingal
09-17-2006 3:02 AM


Welcome to EvC
Glad you decided to add to our diversity. We have a wide variety of forums for your debating pleasure, but I warn you it can become habit forming.
In the purple signature box below, you'll find some links that will help make your journey here pleasant.
Pay particular attention to our Forum Guidelines and all will go well.
Again welcome and fruitful debating. Purple

Usually, in a well-conducted debate, speakers are either emotionally uncommitted or can preserve sufficient detachment to maintain a coolly academic approach.-- Encylopedia Brittanica, on debate

Links for comments on moderation procedures and/or responding to admin msgs:
  • General discussion of moderation procedures
  • Thread Reopen Requests
  • Considerations of topic promotions from the "Proposed New Topics" forum
    Helpful links for New Members:
    Forum Guidelines, [thread=-19,-112], [thread=-17,-45], and Practice Makes Perfect

  • This message is a reply to:
     Message 167 by macnietspingal, posted 09-17-2006 3:02 AM macnietspingal has not replied

      
    arachnophilia
    Member (Idle past 1365 days)
    Posts: 9069
    From: god's waiting room
    Joined: 05-21-2004


    Message 169 of 298 (349829)
    09-17-2006 6:06 PM
    Reply to: Message 167 by macnietspingal
    09-17-2006 3:02 AM


    Re: Todah Rabah for your research in Koran
    I don't know Arabic but I do know Hebrew so I just wondered if the actual Qu'Ran uses "Lord" or some form of YHWH.
    the qu'ran uses the word "allah" which is related to the hebrew/aramaic or , meaning "god." as far as i know, it does not contain the divine name , though it might call allah by some cognate of .
    unfortunately, i don't know arabic either, so i can't tell you for certain. but we do have one member, i believe, who reads arabic. though he's only been vocal in the chat recently.
    Edited by arachnophilia, : — — ‘— —‘ —


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 167 by macnietspingal, posted 09-17-2006 3:02 AM macnietspingal has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 170 by macnietspingal, posted 09-18-2006 9:02 AM arachnophilia has replied

      
    macnietspingal
    Inactive Member


    Message 170 of 298 (349931)
    09-18-2006 9:02 AM
    Reply to: Message 169 by arachnophilia
    09-17-2006 6:06 PM


    Re: Todah Rabah for your research in Koran
    So I decided to search in my WINQT software, Koran, for both "god" and "lord". The results limit to 200 instances. There are over 200 instances each for "god" and "lord". So my only deduction is that the Jewish tribes back in the 6th century CE in Iraq, Iran, etc. used to pray just like we do today "Baruch atah adonai, elohaynoo". Blesed are you Lord our God". However, and no Christian nor Muslim knows this, this is not what the prayers actually say. It's "Baruch atah Y'H'W'H elohaynoo". So why don't Christians and Muslims know this from their leadership? People like Jesus and Muhammad. I just don't get it. I'm not speaking from a spiritual perception, my spirituality rests strictly on history. I must have the truth to be spiritual.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 169 by arachnophilia, posted 09-17-2006 6:06 PM arachnophilia has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 171 by arachnophilia, posted 09-18-2006 7:43 PM macnietspingal has replied

      
    arachnophilia
    Member (Idle past 1365 days)
    Posts: 9069
    From: god's waiting room
    Joined: 05-21-2004


    Message 171 of 298 (350094)
    09-18-2006 7:43 PM
    Reply to: Message 170 by macnietspingal
    09-18-2006 9:02 AM


    So I decided to search in my WINQT software, Koran, for both "god" and "lord". The results limit to 200 instances. There are over 200 instances each for "god" and "lord".
    i would imagine that "lord" is not a replacement for hashem in judaism, but rather a cognate of the title (much like the nt does not contain the name, but a word meaning "lord.")
    So my only deduction is that the Jewish tribes back in the 6th century CE in Iraq, Iran, etc. used to pray just like we do today "Baruch atah adonai, elohaynoo". Blesed are you Lord our God". However, and no Christian nor Muslim knows this, this is not what the prayers actually say. It's "Baruch atah Y'H'W'H elohaynoo".
    yes, hashem fell out of customary use, due to it's sanctity. this apparently happened at some point during the biblical tradition's authorship, as certain sources (e, for instance) avoiding using the name. the new testament (whether you believe any or not) is actually a good demonstration of this, as it lacks any transliteration of the name of god. only a translation of the title adonai.
    So why don't Christians and Muslims know this from their leadership?
    what especially bugs me is when christians get the name of god wrong. if you're gonna use it, and not follow the tradition of respect, at least get it right.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 170 by macnietspingal, posted 09-18-2006 9:02 AM macnietspingal has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 172 by macnietspingal, posted 09-18-2006 8:02 PM arachnophilia has replied

      
    macnietspingal
    Inactive Member


    Message 172 of 298 (350099)
    09-18-2006 8:02 PM
    Reply to: Message 171 by arachnophilia
    09-18-2006 7:43 PM


    Please don't say "hashem" say "Y'H'W'H"
    In THE BIBLE UNEARTHED, the authors call it the "Y'H'W'H ONLY" party.
    BTW, since our discussion the Pope is doing his bit to educate. I think the Vatican endorses Talmud now. This means the end of the reign of Constantine. I smell the breath of the "secure the blessings of liberty" right now. I depend on the Vatican for truth because there are so few Jews on Earth and we all read the Torah Scrolls in over 200 languages. I wonder if it exists in Arabic?

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 171 by arachnophilia, posted 09-18-2006 7:43 PM arachnophilia has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 173 by arachnophilia, posted 09-18-2006 8:08 PM macnietspingal has replied
     Message 178 by macnietspingal, posted 09-20-2006 8:56 AM macnietspingal has replied

      
    arachnophilia
    Member (Idle past 1365 days)
    Posts: 9069
    From: god's waiting room
    Joined: 05-21-2004


    Message 173 of 298 (350100)
    09-18-2006 8:08 PM
    Reply to: Message 172 by macnietspingal
    09-18-2006 8:02 PM


    Re: Please don't say "hashem" say "Y'H'W'H"
    In THE BIBLE UNEARTHED, the authors call it the "Y'H'W'H ONLY" party.
    what's wrong with hashem? it just means "the name" and is generally considered more respectful than actually using the name itself.
    ...so few Jews on Earth and we all read the Torah Scrolls in over 200 languages. I wonder if it exists in Arabic?
    i believe it does.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 172 by macnietspingal, posted 09-18-2006 8:02 PM macnietspingal has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 174 by macnietspingal, posted 09-19-2006 1:31 PM arachnophilia has replied

      
    macnietspingal
    Inactive Member


    Message 174 of 298 (350319)
    09-19-2006 1:31 PM
    Reply to: Message 173 by arachnophilia
    09-18-2006 8:08 PM


    Re: Please don't say "hashem" say "Y'H'W'H"
    Why is it more respectful?
    What or whom are you respecting. Certianly not the intellegence of the 21st century children. Aren't you teaching them not to read Hebrew and to editorialize the textbooks? Doesn't that create hate and violence?

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 173 by arachnophilia, posted 09-18-2006 8:08 PM arachnophilia has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 175 by arachnophilia, posted 09-19-2006 3:46 PM macnietspingal has not replied

      
    arachnophilia
    Member (Idle past 1365 days)
    Posts: 9069
    From: god's waiting room
    Joined: 05-21-2004


    Message 175 of 298 (350374)
    09-19-2006 3:46 PM
    Reply to: Message 174 by macnietspingal
    09-19-2006 1:31 PM


    Re: Please don't say "hashem" say "Y'H'W'H"
    ok, this is taking a severe left turn.
    i tend to replace the name of the lord with either "the lord" or "god" or "the name" out of respect and continuation of the hebrew tradition, regarding the sanctity of the divine name. while i am not jewish myself, i do it because they do it, and i respect the religion enough to mind its sensitive points.
    i have no real qualms about using the divine name, especially not in an educational manner, which said tradition actually allows for.
    Aren't you teaching them not to read Hebrew and to editorialize the textbooks?
    absolutely not, and this is possibly the second biggest misrepresentation of my position that i have ever heard. (the first still goes to faith, who once accused me of antisemitism.) the most consistent theme in my nearly 7,000 posts here is "learn hebrew, learn the social, religious, linguistic, cultural, and textual context, and for god's sake pay attention to what the text actually says." indeed, even a quick search will yield not only posts where i do use the divine name, but multiple posts where i explain the pronounciation. i even started an entire thread entirely devoted to correct transliteration of the tetragrammaton. feel free to peruse those a bit, i think you find that i am all for the correct use of the proper name of god.
    Doesn't that create hate and violence?
    how, exactly?
    Edited by arachnophilia, : broken tag


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 174 by macnietspingal, posted 09-19-2006 1:31 PM macnietspingal has not replied

      
    Nighttrain
    Member (Idle past 4015 days)
    Posts: 1512
    From: brisbane,australia
    Joined: 06-08-2004


    Message 176 of 298 (350592)
    09-20-2006 7:21 AM


    El or Yah
    If we accept inscriptions in Old Negev or Proto-Canaanite dating back to 3500 years BP as denoting the original name of God, we can drop all the variations in the OP. Repeatedly, the name El or Yah, sometimes both, seems to be the favoured appelation.
    A script with a large representation of archaic features has been traced from the Sinai (Serabit el-Khadim) during the Late Bronze Age (1600-1400 BC) to the Land of Canaan (where it survived as Proto-Canaanite through the eight hundred year hiatus). Around 1200 BC two variations of Proto-Canaanite emerge; Old Negev in the southern deserts and Canaanite/Phoenician in the north (Canaan, Moab, Phoenicia, etc.).
    In the Negev the script continues well into the Iron Age and at some time between the Assyrian conquest and the Babylonian captivity, the script and the language it expressed fell out of use. [Discoveries, such as the water jars marked with this script found in Old Jerusalem's Burnt House, 600 BC, may have been family treasures from a dimming past.]
    The language, best called Proto-Canaanite, (suggesting the West Semitic, used throughout the Northwest Semitic area, before the language formed distinctive dialects and before the dialects became distinctive languages.
    The ethnic ties of the Old Negev scribes may include Kenite Midianites, Israelites, and other Canaanites such as the Avites and the Canaanites that worshipped Yah of Gad (Lachish Ewer).
    Perceptions of Yah in the Ancient Negev:
    The name of Yah was never spelled out in full in any of the inscriptions. The most often use form was Yah (hy), followed by El/Yah or Yah/El (hy la) and just two inscriptions of Yahh (hhy).
    The ram is the most frequently encountered icon associated with Yah and El. The ram's seventy appearances in the first four books of Moses (which invite and insure the continued favor of the God of Israel) are complimented by the image of the Ram of Redemtpion and is an acknowledgment of God's intervention among the ancient inhabitants of the Negev.
    Place names found in the compositions are appropriate for the time, location, and context in which they are used. The persona of Yah is associated with radiance, as from the sun and the head of the radiant Serpent. The glory of the radiant serpent was to be extended to his people so that their countenances would shine as they become a holy nation (a sanctified people). It is possible that the serpent (as an icon of Yahweh) would have survived in greater numbers had it not been for the reforms of Hezekiah and Josiah. The serpent symbolizes Yah as the healer, and God of the storms, rain, sun, and Prince of Life. Yah was the disciplinarian, judge, protector, deliverer, teacher, purifier, and Father of his covenant people.
    More from:
    http://www.lib.byu.edu/~imaging/negev/Names.html

      
    ReverendDG
    Member (Idle past 4131 days)
    Posts: 1119
    From: Topeka,kansas
    Joined: 06-06-2005


    Message 177 of 298 (350595)
    09-20-2006 7:40 AM


    Heres something interesting i read recently: at one point the hebrews called Yahweh Ba'al as a name they borrowed it from the caanites until jezebel tried to start a cult and the yahwehists killed it off
    In the early stages of Hebrew religion, Baal is mentioned many times, reflected in his name being used for names, i.e. King Saul named a son Ishbaal. But with the Hebrews, Baal may have been used as a synonym for Yahweh. As a matter of fact, the attempt of Queen Jezebel of Israel in the 9th century BCE to introduce the cult of Baal met so strong opposition, that from this time on, the term baal was no longer used with positive connotations.
    from:Page not found - i-cias.com
    Until after the time of Solomon, it appears that the Hebrews used the word "baal," "Master, Owner" as a synonum of Adon, Lord. Among the sons of King Saul, who was certainly not a worshiper of a pagan god, were Merib-Baal, "the Lord contends" and Eshbaal (originally, ish-baal), "man of the Lord," (I Chronicles 8:33,34; 9:39, 40) and even one of King David's sons was called Beeliada (originally baal-yada), "the Lord knows" (I Chronicles 14:7), who is called Eliada (el-yada), "God knows" in II Samuel 5:16.
    from:http://www.jewishgates.com/file.asp?File_ID=799
    interesting stuff how the name of god has changed over the centuries
    good site about gods many names
    just thought i'd add something here

      
    macnietspingal
    Inactive Member


    Message 178 of 298 (350621)
    09-20-2006 8:56 AM
    Reply to: Message 172 by macnietspingal
    09-18-2006 8:02 PM


    Re: Please don't say "hashem" say "Y'H'W'H"
    I started writing a long response but I suddenly realized the response to your final question is all I need to explain my passion about language. It's exactly that I can read the Torah Scrolls in the original and can have a private conversation with Y'H'W'H and a musical one at that, and no follower of RaMBaM can control what i do in my home and how I express my own intelligence which I paid dearly for myself when I was poor giving up many materialistic comforts.
    If all Muslims and Christians had the cdrom Trope Trainer which means they would have to at the very miniumum have the same Orthodox Jewish ed I had for 5 years (7-12 years old) which simply was learning to read Torah fast and accurately without understanding a single word, they would know that not saying Y'H'W'H is hateful and I don't have to say about provoking violence, because that Orthodox Legal Student who murderred Rabin speaks loudly for me. So in the name of Rabin I say Israel should promote the daily reading of the Torah Scrolls in all public schools in Israel and let kids say the words in the Hebrew Language of the Nation. The minute you substitute you are teaching people to be sneaky and then kill people if they are "sneaky". In the 21st century in an Anglo-Saxon universe this is the truth. I look forward to the Pope declaring this. That Jesus is the son of Y'H'W'H (which is not to be translated Jehovah In fact, ask Mel Gibson if I'm not right. My fellow Jews should have said this when his film came out but instead they didn't because they were afraid of the truth, not for me but for their own property rights. No one has property rights for the Torah Scrolls, they belong to the whole Earth, even atheists and Buddhists, etc. In fact, even Muhammad knew this and said so.
    That way we can get spirituality on the right course. Discussing the Neanderthal/HomoSapiens/Cro-Magnon evelution "under Y'H'W'H"
    and "In Y'H'W'H we trust".

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 172 by macnietspingal, posted 09-18-2006 8:02 PM macnietspingal has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 179 by macnietspingal, posted 09-20-2006 11:53 AM macnietspingal has not replied
     Message 180 by Nighttrain, posted 09-20-2006 10:39 PM macnietspingal has replied
     Message 187 by arachnophilia, posted 09-21-2006 5:24 PM macnietspingal has replied

      
    macnietspingal
    Inactive Member


    Message 179 of 298 (350665)
    09-20-2006 11:53 AM
    Reply to: Message 178 by macnietspingal
    09-20-2006 8:56 AM


    Re: Please don't say "hashem" say "Y'H'W'H"
    I just want to add this because I just found this out and I want to know if this is true or not. It certainly makes a lot of sense to me. Back in the 12th century, when Islam controlled all the geography of the "world", RaMBaM had to submit to Islam in order to survive. At that time the Church hated Jews too. So RaMBaM behaved liked a Muslim and practiced Judaism in private. No wonder he wrote he was completely exhausted from his lifestyle. He was the chief physician to the Islamic ruler. Jews didn't all agree with his Mishne Toreh and were about to perform a herem on him when some Christian Brothers burned hsi books and that's exactly why all Jews went solidly behind him to this very day. So when you think "Jew" you must be aware that the official annointed one/Christ of Jews is RaMBaM, so that's who you may be respecting. Not the Torah Scrolls. Yes the tradition was to keep Y'H'W'H a secret long before this. But that might be because you would be killed by the pagans if you pronounced the world. It was like a secret among the very first continuing sect endorsing ONE SUPREME BEING instead of many SURPREME BEINGS. It was necessary to go "undercover".
    That doesn't apply today, because everyone is Jewish who uses Torah/Taurat as a basis for their spirituality. Jews have always fought each other in tribal form, just like borthers and sisters fight each other in a huge amount of families, for the favors of their parents.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 178 by macnietspingal, posted 09-20-2006 8:56 AM macnietspingal has not replied

      
    Nighttrain
    Member (Idle past 4015 days)
    Posts: 1512
    From: brisbane,australia
    Joined: 06-08-2004


    Message 180 of 298 (350860)
    09-20-2006 10:39 PM
    Reply to: Message 178 by macnietspingal
    09-20-2006 8:56 AM


    Re: Please don't say "hashem" say "Y'H'W'H"
    It's exactly that I can read the Torah Scrolls in the original
    You have the 'original' Torah Scrolls? Hallelujah, brother, I knew they would surface one day.
    Next time you have a private chat with Y`H`W`H, how about asking Him for a quickie cure for malaria, huh? Y`know, all those kids dying.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 178 by macnietspingal, posted 09-20-2006 8:56 AM macnietspingal has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 181 by macnietspingal, posted 09-21-2006 3:03 AM Nighttrain has replied

      
    Newer Topic | Older Topic
    Jump to:


    Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

    ™ Version 4.2
    Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024