YHWH, Yahweh, Jehovah, adonai, lord, elohim, god, allah, Allah thread.

well, I do have the Isaiah Dead Sea Scrolls analysis and there's precious little difference between them and the current Isaiah. I remember when my Rabbi saw the B'nai B'rith exhibit when the DDS first were announced. It was just a "scrap" and he was shocked because he could easily read it. Seems it may be true that all through those years when Constantine's authority ruled the world and people were put to death if they did Talmud Torah, that the Jewish scribes could be counted on to copy as accurately as possible so that even today you can use biblical Hebrew in Israel and the Israelis can understand you. Modern Hebrew was evolved from the Torah. You know, I recently understand why they say Torah is more than the First Five books of everyone's Bible. It really is. It's why there is so much more in the Bible. The entire bible after the first five books is about preserving the first five books as a basis for spirituality instead of sacificing to many gods. Now you have to understand that when I say "bible" I mean TaNaCH, Apocrypha, New Testament, Koran. I use two pieces of software, Parson's and Submission.org - Your best source for Submission (Islam) to get a list of verses by a single word like "torah" "law"(which is the Christian word for Torah, Christian, Jew, Jesus, kill, Israel. It's a great detective game for me. Both software puts the list on the clipboard so I can paste it all on one document.BTW, if I don't like the translation of the Hebrew TaNaCH by a language, I can look up the Hebrew word in my New World Hebrew/English dictionary myself and get the original meaning. Try it with your friends, it's a great way to learn ancient history and cultures in the Middle East when the world was simply the Mediterranean. Even St. Jerome realized this and said so by translating the Hebrew Bible himself becauser he thought the Septuagint was not trustworthy I just found that out last week. If it's good enough for St. Jerome, as a truth, it's good enough for you, you think?

Why do apologists always point out the inerrancy of Isaiah in the Qumran Scrolls? Because it`s the only copy from the OT that doesn`t wander all over the shop. Other books bear varying degrees of resemblance to MT. MT itself was reworked at least by the academy at Jamnia c.100, so whether it bears full resemblance to the originals is debatable. Then there was the nonsense with Hilkiah/Josiah, the Emendations of the Sopherim, etc.,etc. And so it goes on,tamper,tamper.

Because archeologically, scientifically, it's a miraculous event. What are the chances that over almost 2000 years something written by people who are pretty much like the average Middle East current individual would write something that is preserved so well and so important in today's world.That gives me confidence in the basic honesty of human beings. It also gives me confidence in the Torah Scrolls and the Talmud.As for your comments about nothing making sense. Those people make more sense and exhibited more intelligence than you do. Look at the world they lived in, human sacrifice. These Torah Scrolls were the single docments that replaced human sacrifice with belief in themselves. These were living, bleeding human beings that recorded exactly how they lived. In fact, the Torah Scrolls are great for modern psychiatry. They also explain even today how the terrorists come to be.I had an Orthodox Jewish education but my single parent Mom who was brought up in an Orthodox family rebelled against it all. So she made me go to Hebrew School after she found out thay were teaching me Christianity in public school. Yet she told me I couldn't discuss anything I was learning with her. Of course, that's because women weren't allowed to study all this stuff in her days. So I was lucky to learn how to pronounce Hebrew. Later in life, I decided to take some classes in Hebrew Grammar. That's just a matter of luck that I got all this when I was young. I got my first bible at 20 YO. It was a bible suggested by the Director of Hillel who said he was shocking me by suggesting a Bible that had the New Testament. The reason was because Goodspeed's version was based on the most scientific archeological information of that time. So that's how I learned Christianity. It's not a matter of religion but of religion being forced on me by Jewhating Christians in ppublic school in Washington, D.C. That's what the Torah Scrolls are all about, not having religion forced on you and to think for yourself.For the last 25 years I've been trying to get the truth of the evolution of "under God". It was only in retirement that I had the time to do this. I looked into why we celebrate Khanookah. That's how I found out about the Apocrypha. I later found out that we Jews translated "almah" into "virgin". I found out only a few years ago that the Septuagint was written by Greek Jews. I found out last week That immediately after being commissioned to help write the Vulgate based on the Septuagint that St. Jerome, himself, probably felt the same way I did and decided, on his own, to translate directly from the Torah Scrolls/TaNaCH. So that gives me strength to recommend it to every one to take Hebrew. It's not a mythical knowledge, but extremely scientifically historical. Even Muhammad says so. I live in a world of human beings who are in control of global corporations and therefore my very life. These corporations use my bible to do this. So I use the original language of the source of the Bible and I can now prove I am scientifically correct that the Torah Scrolls are the source of all this because Muhammad even says so as late as 600 CE. Between St. Jerome and Muhammad supporting me, I feel great. I've been lucky to take a path all my life that turns out to be the correct one. I'm not close to being wealthy in material goods, but in brain wealth I've very lucky.So if anything I'm saying is scientifically incorrect I want to know.Thye authors of the Torah Scrolls, I repeat, tell us all the knowledge that existed in the Medtierranean over 2500 years ago.
Because they didn't have science at that time, it had to be the grapevine. If you lived back then, that's the only "library" you would have had. Remember it wasn't until 400 years ago that we are lucky enough to know the Earth circles the sun. It wasn't until 500 years ago that we knew there was Western and Eastern Hemisphere.It isn't until just now that we know that we are all derived from hydrogen. And how did hydrogen come to be? I won't say it's a god, a Lord, an El Senor, an adonai, but I will say it's Y'H'W'H. Just like these ancients did. It's as meaningful today as it was back then. It fits the Constitution's "secure the blessing of liberty". Y'H'W'H means "liberty" to me. It probably meant the same to the authors of the Torah Scrolls.

I think we are discussing what does it matter about old documents. Well, because I read every word and question every word in three languages, English/Hebrew/Spanish, (I use the dictionary for all), I will give an example of how important ancient documents are for each and every human being on earth. Right now we live under an ancient document in the USA, the Constitution. On Constitution Day, the Supreme Court Justice of the USA remarked that our Constitution did a single tremendous correction to the USA justice system. He mentioned the outlawing of slavery. He is absolutely wrong because until the 19th amendment, all females were considered 3/4 human.In fact, because of personal observations which turned out to be Al Quaeda in 2/2001, (found out about Al Quaeda in 9/2001), I decided to buy the Koran and read it myself. I was studying composition and was inspired by my first scanning of the Koran to compose "WHO AM I? ABRAHAM OR IBRAHIM? ISMAIL OR ISAAC". This has to do with binding of either Ismail or Isaac. After 9/2001 I composed "RED?WHITE/BLUE 19". That was the 19th amendment which gave me, among the first generation of USA females, the right to vote. So much for the New Testament and me. Y'H'W'H explains all this. Lord/El Senor does not. I suggest you read the very Jewish verses in Sirach:25 and 26 about females. I've discussed this with hispanics and they say that there is such a thing as "machoism" in the Hispanic culture.I add to the following Sura:[2:113]
The Jews said, "The Christians have no basis," while the
Christians said, "The Jews have no basis." Yet, both of
them read the scripture. Such are the utterances of those
who possess no knowledge. GOD will judge them on the Day
of Resurrection, regarding their disputes.Folks the Resurrection has occurred and it is the Nation of Israel and so has the Torah Scrolls because[3:50]
"I confirm previous scripture - the Torah - and I revoke
certain prohibitions imposed upon you. I come to you with
sufficient proof from your Lord. Therefore, you shall
observe GOD, and obey me.So Sura 2:13 has to modified to say that Jews, Christians and Muslims fight over the same scriptures. Just wish they would explain all this in our military colleges. Really great history of Earthy wars

I know this was discussed a long time ago but I didn't see any of the replies to this message that address this misunderstanding. Just because the transliteration of the statement distinguishes ilaha from allah does not mean that they are different words or the equivalent of a proper name in English. IIRC the context of the transliteration are different because of the grammatical structures of Arabic. Since I am not a native speaker I don't know for sure but I am pretty confident you are drawing the incorrect conclusion from the transliteration of that phrase. There is no god vs God distinction in that phrase or in Arabic at all.

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Of course, biblical creationists are committed to belief in God's written Word, the Bible, which forbids bearing false witness; --AIG (lest they forget)

Once again I repeat that you are taking a grammatical construct and misidentifying it as a proper name.

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Of course, biblical creationists are committed to belief in God's written Word, the Bible, which forbids bearing false witness; --AIG (lest they forget)

if you have "the original" you'll probably notice something. has vowels. in most copies of ha-torah, it probably reads:which, as you seem to be able to read hebrew, you'll probably notice is a very, very strange combination of consonants and vowels. and that's because they're the vowels from , not . as i'm sure you know, this is to remind the reader to say "adonay" aloud, instead of the name of god. that's the tradition -- and has been for 1800 years. these vowels, iirc, are in the masoretic text -- a good deal earlier than rambam.also, as you seem to able to read hebrew, you no doubt understand that nobody really cares about vowels in their writing -- nobody needs them to read. however, in english, it's customary to use them in english, and those apostrophes are just ugly, as is typing anything in all caps.it is by far better to use either the hebrew directly, , or use the transliteration with the implied vowels, "yahueh" or "yahweh." most certainly not. even forgiving the yud-to-"j" issue (as many hebrew names take on a j in english), it's the wrong set of vowels and the wrong number of syllables. and it comes from a misunderstanding of the above custom. respect it, or ignore it, but at least understand it. if you want to use the hebrew, by all means use the hebrew.as a side note: yes, i was suprised at how little of a disadvantage i was at being the only goy in my hebrew class. what do they teach these kids in hebrew school? lol. yitsak rabin? what did his assination have to do with the name of god?i'm gonna ignore the rambling political polemic, because i honestly can't figure out what the heck you're even talking about, let alone the argument you're trying to make, and this is really not the thread for it.

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That's the point, you don't add vowels. That's editorializing. It's not political rambling, it's scientific. You are a captive of so-called "experts" who are really politicians. You are really one scared individual. Talk to a linguist. You know Israelis don't use vowels.You avoid the whole subject because you don't want to recognize that all humans are gullible to a few individuals for what reason in the USA & U.K. & Israel I don't understand. In other countries I do. But the USA was the U.K. transported across the ocean. Think Queen Victoria and Queen Elizabeth. Hmmm, I thank you for this discussion instead of simply saying that I'm crazy. That's another new path. What the influence of English Queens have had on the Western Hemisphere. Now this is not rambling, it's called synergy & brainstorming. Also called multitasking. Also called parallel reasoning. Also makes me more lucky I happened upon the Encyclopedia Britannica when I was still in Jr. High. That was pure luck because the school system didn't want me to know about it. Another British influence. We all were lucky the British came over here and won out over the Spanish in this part of the Western Hemisphere.And come to think of it, what's the difference between this kind of communications and a stand-up comedian

no, that's translating from one language to the other. when you read a word in hebrew, it may not have the vowels in it, but you know what they are. when you write a word in english, it has to have vowels. if you're going to transliterate a name from hebrew to english, it's customary to add the appropriate vowels so the english readers can understand. otherwise, just write it in hebrew.for instance, we write "David" not "D'V'D" and "Jonathan" not "Y'H'V'N'T'N"what is editorializing is purposefully not writing the name of god correctly. people who write "YHWH" are trying to make it seem like the name cannot be pronounced in a human tongue. how do you say four consonants in a row? you don't. the pattern of not writing vowels in the english transliteration of god's name is specifically intended to make pronounciation impossible. yet, god's name can be said human beings. if you think it should be, try to make it pronouncable. they do when they write in english. and actually, alef and ayin are both vowels, and vav, heh and yud are semi-vowels. so yes, hebrew does use vowels on a regular basis, just not vowel points.and i don't know what you expect me to hear if i talk to a linguist. i am not totally in the dark with regards to the hebrew language. it has nothing to do with the topic. you obviously have some agenda to sell -- and if anyone's been taken captive by politicians (or, perhaps crackpots) it seems to be you. no, it's rambling. and "synergy" is not a real word. "synergy" and "brainstorming" are good codewords for "bullshit" or "marketting" or "poor business management." ditto. ditto. comedians typically make sense.

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If I write DVD referring to the Bible wouldn't you KNOW it meant David? That is if I wrote Dalad w/v Dalad. Could it mean anything else in the context? The whole Hebrew language is based on primarily 3 cuaracter root. No one knows if the WaW in Y'H'W'H is a vowel or not. They have played around with these 4 letters for centuries. They can't make it fit anything else in TaNaCH. It's even give a special name because it IS a mystery word - Tetragrammaton. I simly prefer to use the new linguistic tool used for such language problems and transliterate Y for yood, H for Hay, W/V for Waw/Vav, H for Hay like my Webster's New World Dictionary does. And to show that no one knows nor ever will know what it means, simply say Y'H'W'H. It certainly is a shortcut to the official label, tetragrammaton.Just realized something DVD is also used in Israel as knickname DooDoo, that takes care of the Vav being also a vowel When you say Y'H'W'H elohaynoo is there any doubt? Or Y'H'W'H is ONE El, can there be any doubt. But it doesn't have to be a Lord which makes a human image. Instead people can make it something special, like an extraterrestrial Or even the force that created Hydrogen which turned into us. I don't think a single scientist would have problems with this.BTW, today the JWR's newsletter cited an article that Judaism is not a religion. I didn't read the article but I agree. Which is the poiint of this whole discussion. It may be that Israel might start conceding that all Jews should not substitute Adonai any more since the State of Israel exists.

— ‘no, i would not. it takes all kinds here, and that includes the clearly crackpots and occasionally the criminally insane. the topic of dvd's (and by that i mean digital video discs) in the bible has indeed come up before.if you wrote , i know you were referring to david (probably KING david, given the context). if you wrote "david" i know you were referring to david. but if you wrote "DVD" i'd think you meant that swanky new edition of "the ten commandments", or worse, some half-baked crackpot theory about time travel and modern technology. considering that is a conjugation of the verb — (), yes. the vav is indeed functioning as a vowel, and "oh" or an "oo" sound. i opt for "oo" because is currently pronounced "yahu" in people's names, ie: or even ‘ . that's just false. it's a conjugation of a very common verb. anyone who's taken an intermediate hebrew class should be able to figure this out. yes, but that's ingoring the simple facts of the hebrew language and the history of the semitic phonics system. a letter stood not just for the consonant, but for an implied vowel that followed it, except in certain situations (like the end of a word). when you say the words aloud, you pronounce the vowels, don't you? i know what it means. if you know hebrew, you should know what it means. if you've read the book of exodus you should know what it means. hell, even buzsaw here knows what it means, even if he can't spell it right. when moshe asks of god his name in exodus 3, god says:

quote:

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(i am what i am)

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and then goes on to say:

quote:

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—‘ —, , — —
(say this to the sons of israel, "i am has sent me to you.")

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and in the next verse, he calls himself . it doesn't make a whole heck of a lot of sense in english -- but that three-letter root of and the three-letter root of are BOTH -- "to be." the authors of the bible were quite fond of their puns, it seems. how is "tetragrammaton" any different than "ha-shem" or any other replacement? god has a name, and one that can be pronounced if you know any hebrew at all. why not the write the name properly, either in hebrew, or in an effective transliteration in english? why not just say — like it does in the torah? or, if you're too lazy to type in hebrew, why not just "yahweh elohim?" yeah, what? again, what?Edited by arachnophilia, : No reason given.

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I carefully said DVD "in context". I don't have the facility to write in Hebrew fonts. It's really not necessary because transliteration into the lingua frenca is sufficient. D'V'D in context within TaNaCH is David. Show me another verse of dalad-vav-daled in TaNaCH when it doesn't mean David.You haven't broken down the grammar of Y'H'W'H to prove it's a subject predicate. You simply wrote in translation "Y'H'W'H asher (that is) Y'H'W'H". I think that's exactly what it MEANS. Period. No editorializing please. I wish I could take the time to find it right now, but there's a verse that says exactly that. The God of gods, the Y'H'W'H of Y'H'W'H's, which I just discovered recently. Can't be more specific than that. It was given to Moses as a label period. That's the Musical Torah Tale.The way the Muslims act about the Pope rationalizing Islam, shows how dangerous words are in the environment in the Middle East forever. What we call "terrorists" are really the living example of the universe the authors of the Torah lived in.That's how I understand the Torah Scrolls. BTW, it's not "Bible stories" as even my Orthodox Rabbis called them, but really Torah Stories. And everyone can sing them because they are on a cdrom now. It's a great way to learn Hebrew.A question: wasn't Deuteronomy influential in the construction of the USA Constitution. I have the impression from my pitiful research that the Freemasonry did respect Deuteronomy. I'm asking this question because of our wonderful brainstorming and it's becoming almost a legal discussion. If my impression of the mindset of the founding fathers of this country is possible, then perhaps this should be a part of Legal Education, especially Tractate Sanhedrin. We could all enjoy the synergy of USA Law schools in discussing Tetragrammaton.To give an example of breaking a word down:Main Entry: tetragrammaton
Pronunciation: ’te-tr”-”gra-m”-’tn
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Greek, from neuter of tetragrammatos having four letters, from tetra- + grammat-, gramma letter” more at gram
Date: 15th century: the four Hebrew letters usually transliterated YHWH or JHVH that form a biblical proper name of God ” compare yahweh
==============Note to my fellow USA citizens of the Muslim faith, I use the Koran legally too, with great respect, so it confirms that Torah should be part of the Constitutions of every country "under God/Allah". I remind y'all:[2:113]
The Jews said, "The Christians have no basis," while the
Christians said, "The Jews have no basis." Yet, both of
them read the scripture. Such are the utterances of those
who possess no knowledge. GOD will judge them on the Day
of Resurrection, regarding their disputes.3:50
"I confirm previous scripture - the Torah - and I revoke
certain prohibitions imposed upon you. I come to you with
sufficient proof from your Lord. Therefore, you shall
observe GOD, and obey me.

and i carefully pointed you to argument where someone thought that king david was a movie. Magictyper - Type in Hebrew Phonetically but that's not what you are doing. you are only transliterating half the word. why do you write the vowels in "asher?" why not 'ASHR? and what do you want me to prove, exactly? you claim to know hebrew, are you unfamiliar with the concept of grammar? no, you are editorializing when you say that people cannot know what it means, or how to say it. there is a general academic consensus as to how to pronounce it, and everybody knows what it means -- because you have to in order to understand exodus 3. you are editorializing because you are treating the name of god as if it were somehow different than any other hebrew word. you rail against replacement, but you are equally avoiding its proper usage. no. that's not "brainstorming." it's off-topic. and did you compare? "yahweh" is the proper name of god. "tetragrammaton" is the greek-ish term for the name, meaning "four letters." it is NOT his name, but a replacement for his name, exactly the same as "ha-shem." it refers to the name, but not the person of god.

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I will end here. I just want to thank you for your consideration and time spent. It's helped a lot. "In Y'H'W'H I trust" "under Y'H'W'H". I suggest for those who really don't use Hebrew easily, like myself, that the Webster New World Hebrew/English Dictionary is a great timesaver.

i still prefer milon-morfix/melingo, but it requires that you actually type in hebrew to look things up.

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