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Author Topic:   animals on the ark
Taz
Member (Idle past 1574 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 182 of 196 (351100)
09-21-2006 3:20 PM
Reply to: Message 181 by Chiroptera
09-21-2006 2:35 PM


Re: Can't answer all of your questions, but here is a possible one
The dead sea.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Chiroptera
Member
Posts: 6802
From: Oklahoma
Joined: 09-28-2003
Member Rating: 6.6


Message 183 of 196 (351101)
09-21-2006 3:21 PM
Reply to: Message 182 by Taz
09-21-2006 3:20 PM


The Rocky Mountains, too.


"The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one." -- George Bernard Shaw

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 Message 184 by Taz, posted 09-21-2006 6:39 PM Chiroptera has responded

  
Taz
Member (Idle past 1574 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 184 of 196 (351151)
09-21-2006 6:39 PM
Reply to: Message 183 by Chiroptera
09-21-2006 3:21 PM


What I meant was the creation of the dead sea could have been the origin of the various great flood stories. They've found traces of civilization down there. Water could have flooded in and stayed in there from the med.

This message is a reply to:
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Chiroptera
Member
Posts: 6802
From: Oklahoma
Joined: 09-28-2003
Member Rating: 6.6


Message 185 of 196 (351163)
09-21-2006 7:10 PM
Reply to: Message 184 by Taz
09-21-2006 6:39 PM


I can't find anything that claims that the Dead Sea was formed as the result of a catastrophic flood. Maybe there are claims that it was, but I haven't found any yet.

Not that it matters. The Dead Sea is pretty small -- in fact, Israel itself is pretty small. If God was going to destroy a tiny place like the Dead Sea, she could have just told Noah to walk away from the area. And no need to take the animals.

Unless by "Water could have flooded in and stayed in there from the med," you mean that the Dead Sea is the remains of a wider regional flood, then, again, I don't think there is any evidence that such a wider regional flood ever happened (there would be some geological/archaeological evidence), nor, as far as I know, would a large geographical area, large enough to require a life boat for salvation, hold water for a year before it finally drained off.


"The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one." -- George Bernard Shaw

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jar
Member
Posts: 31453
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 186 of 196 (351165)
09-21-2006 7:14 PM
Reply to: Message 185 by Chiroptera
09-21-2006 7:10 PM


I think he means the Black Sea.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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Taz
Member (Idle past 1574 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 187 of 196 (351172)
09-21-2006 7:42 PM
Reply to: Message 185 by Chiroptera
09-21-2006 7:10 PM


I think I was referring to the black sea as well. Looking at my globe right now, which still has Soviet Union written on it, it does make more sense for the black sea to be the candidate.

A hundred fifty years ago, I saw a program on the discovery channel about artifacts found at the bottom of the black/dead sea which either could have been brought there by ship wreck or that a civ was once there.

I am not saying that a mountain range collapsed and a wall of water descended on these people. I'm saying that for all we know what used to be a desert could turn into a pond, then a lake, then a sea in a time span of years.

Now, imagine if you're a trader who have been away from home for many years. When you return to your homeland, you see a great body of water where there used to be a city. Even though it took like 5 years to flood the area, someone like you who wasn't there to see it would have thought, "wow, that was a really big flood."

Over the years, oral tradition turned into myth. And what happens when a person tells a story to someone else and that someone tells the story to someone else and so on and so forth? The story gets changed. Details are exaggerated to make it more interesting. Characters are added to traumatize the situation. After several centuries of this, you can pretty much guess what happens to the original boring story of the great flood that swallowed up a city or two.

This reminds me of Homer's story the Iliad. They've unearthed what they're pretty sure to be the city of Troy and they've discovered evidence that the city was once under seige and that there was a fire that destroyed it afterward. Even though the area was colonized by Alexander the great and then the romans who built layers upon layers of buildings on top of the old city, much evidence was saved.

But to the point, the Iliad is filled with magical beings and gods and goddesses. What if it was based on a real war but then centuries of oral tradition have changed it so much that starting from the original boring war you end up with a war that involved supernatural beings?


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Chiroptera
Member
Posts: 6802
From: Oklahoma
Joined: 09-28-2003
Member Rating: 6.6


Message 188 of 196 (351173)
09-21-2006 7:50 PM
Reply to: Message 187 by Taz
09-21-2006 7:42 PM


I've heard of the Black Sea = Noah's Flood theory. But that remains very controversial. For one thing, the actual geological history of the Black Sea turns out to be pretty complicated, and the "flooding" may have taken place over a very long period of time.

But the main reason for my skepticism is that there is a very, very long period of time between the supposed "flooding" of the Black Sea and the writing of the Genesis (and the earlier Sumerian) account. It is quite plausible that the Black Sea incident was long forgotten by the time the Middle Eastern flood story developed.

At any rate, we appear to agree that whatever the source of the Flood Story, the idea of a guy getting advanced warning and building a boat to save the animals is a fanciful story without any correspondence to reality.


"The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one." -- George Bernard Shaw

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Taz
Member (Idle past 1574 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 189 of 196 (351179)
09-21-2006 8:57 PM
Reply to: Message 188 by Chiroptera
09-21-2006 7:50 PM


chiroptera writes:

At any rate, we appear to agree that whatever the source of the Flood Story, the idea of a guy getting advanced warning and building a boat to save the animals is a fanciful story without any correspondence to reality.


For all we know, there might have been such a guy with such a boat. Instead of a big world wide flood, there was a little flood in some village somewhere. Instead of 2 of every species of animal on earth, there were like a couple of goats or whatever that guy owned. Instead of a big-ass boat, it was more like a canoe. And instead of a year, it was more like a couple of days.

Now, imagine this. What if this guy just started exaggerating his story of survival when he told it to other people? What if this story was told over and over again by many different people over generations? What if the people retelling this story all added an extra detail of their own to make it more interesting?

When we are talking about myths and stories that spent the first half a millenium of its life being nothing more than oral traditions, god knows where and how they originated?


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 190 by Chiroptera, posted 09-22-2006 11:28 AM Taz has not yet responded
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 Message 193 by Brian, posted 09-22-2006 12:53 PM Taz has responded

  
Chiroptera
Member
Posts: 6802
From: Oklahoma
Joined: 09-28-2003
Member Rating: 6.6


Message 190 of 196 (351282)
09-22-2006 11:28 AM
Reply to: Message 189 by Taz
09-21-2006 8:57 PM


Now that is an interesting idea. Noah was just an ordinary dude doing an ordinary thing during an ordinary event. I like it.


"The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one." -- George Bernard Shaw

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Jazzns
Member (Idle past 2194 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 191 of 196 (351289)
09-22-2006 12:17 PM
Reply to: Message 189 by Taz
09-21-2006 8:57 PM


Now, imagine this. What if this guy just started exaggerating his story of survival when he told it to other people? What if this story was told over and over again by many different people over generations? What if the people retelling this story all added an extra detail of their own to make it more interesting?

Especially if it was after a crazy catastrophic flood like the flooding of the Black Sea. A kind of flood that was different from the river floods. Something where a natural dam broken which looks kinda like "fountains of the deep".


Of course, biblical creationists are committed to belief in God's written Word, the Bible, which forbids bearing false witness; --AIG (lest they forget)

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Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 16107
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 8.0


Message 192 of 196 (351298)
09-22-2006 12:39 PM


Hey, everyone, I found a list of kinds!

Here

Once more, we Brits lead the way in science.

So far as I can work out, a kind is a family or subfamily, whichever is the smaller, with the following exceptions:

* Apes are classed as Old World monkeys.

* Australopithecus goes in a kind of its own.

* Humans aren't mentioned for some reason.

This fits in with AiG's claim that Felidae is a kind.

This guy, though, has one extra trick: he claims that fossils were laid down after the flood. So he can prove common descent with, guess what? ... intermediate forms.

All he then has do do is deny the efficacity of radiometric dating, ignore the genetic, morphological and fossil evidence for evolution of higher taxa, and, of course, deny that what he's talking about is evolution, and there you go.

What I want to know is, where is the logical limit to this process. Why can he just claim that Noah took one tetrapod onto the Ark, from which all modern species evolved-but-we-don't-call-it-that?

Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.


  
Brian
Member (Idle past 3242 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 193 of 196 (351302)
09-22-2006 12:53 PM
Reply to: Message 189 by Taz
09-21-2006 8:57 PM


The 2400 years later this guy arrives in Jerusalem saying he is the messiah, the son of God.

he lives a pretty boring life, so he decides to become a first century Walter Mitty. He makes up a few stories, his friends make up some more, others exaggerate them, pretty soon this ordinary guy is working miracles, raising the dead, and even came back from the dead himself. The stories are so convincing that 2 billion people now think they are true.

It is a nice explanation you have, but it then opens up the possibility that the entire Bible is a work of fiction.

Brian.


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 Message 189 by Taz, posted 09-21-2006 8:57 PM Taz has responded

Replies to this message:
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 Message 196 by Nighttrain, posted 09-23-2006 9:50 PM Brian has not yet responded

    
Taz
Member (Idle past 1574 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 194 of 196 (351312)
09-22-2006 1:12 PM
Reply to: Message 193 by Brian
09-22-2006 12:53 PM


Brian writes:

It is a nice explanation you have, but it then opens up the possibility that the entire Bible is a work of fiction.


Most of what's in the bible was passed on from mouth to mouth for centuries before it was written down on paper. Even then, each copy had to be copied by hand by servants of politically motivated leaders.

That's not to mention that ancient hebrew ain't got no vowels, punctuation marks, or spaces in between words.


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Chiroptera
Member
Posts: 6802
From: Oklahoma
Joined: 09-28-2003
Member Rating: 6.6


Message 195 of 196 (351320)
09-22-2006 1:30 PM
Reply to: Message 193 by Brian
09-22-2006 12:53 PM


Nice one, but I like the Life of Brian version better.


"The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one." -- George Bernard Shaw

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Nighttrain
Member (Idle past 2276 days)
Posts: 1512
From: brisbane,australia
Joined: 06-08-2004


Message 196 of 196 (351684)
09-23-2006 9:50 PM
Reply to: Message 193 by Brian
09-22-2006 12:53 PM


It is a nice explanation you have, but it then opens up the possibility that the entire Bible is a work of fiction.

And the certainty that there are a lot of gullible people out there. :D


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 Message 193 by Brian, posted 09-22-2006 12:53 PM Brian has not yet responded

    
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