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Author Topic:   Oh my how things have changed!!!
nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 97 of 125 (350106)
09-18-2006 8:35 PM
Reply to: Message 93 by riVeRraT
09-16-2006 7:34 AM


Re: The possible
quote:
That things change so gradual, that we don't even notice the change. Things that lead to our demise become acceptable.
What do you forsee about letting adult gay people who are in love make legal marriage contracts with each other that will lead to detrimental effects to straight marriage?
quote:
Just look at TV, is the perfect example.
When I was a child, I did not see a gun on TV until I was at least 7 or 8. Now kids by the time they are 8 have seen mass murders, and blood and guts, people blowing up, everything.
What does all this do to our minds?
There is a very easy solution to this.
Turn off the television. Or get rid of it entirely.
Nobody is forcing you to have it in your house. I don't.
quote:
Isn't this all about our morals?
No, it's about the Constitution.
It is also about the fact that you don't get to deny people's Constitutional rights because you are afraid of change.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by riVeRraT, posted 09-16-2006 7:34 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 100 by riVeRraT, posted 09-19-2006 7:48 AM nator has replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 101 of 125 (350229)
09-19-2006 9:17 AM
Reply to: Message 100 by riVeRraT
09-19-2006 7:48 AM


Re: The possible
What do you forsee about letting adult gay people who are in love make legal marriage contracts with each other that will lead to detrimental effects to straight marriage?
quote:
Nothing. Straight marraige has already gone to the dogs, all by itself. The demise of straight marraige was the stepping stone to gay marraige.
How has straight marriage "gone to the dogs"? It seems to me that marriage is still pretty popular.
quote:
Marraige is only what is on the surface. The actual causes are much deeper than just marraige, and relate to our morals.
What is immoral about people wanting to make the strongest legally-binding commitment to each other that they can?
I should think you would want to encourage such commitments.
quote:
But what should we do? Allow gay marraige because we need to at least have some good kind of marraige. Or is that even a reason?
We should allow gay marriage because it's none of your business if gay people want to make a secular legal contract with each other.
And, if you are right and straight people really have screwed up marriage, how does it follow that you should deny gays the right to marry because the straights can't get it right?
quote:
I like TV, and will not get rid of it. I pay for it, so I have a say in what is on it.
But you just said how terrible it was for kids to see all of that violence on TV, even using this as an example of the terrible immoral things that can result from gradual change.
Now you say you like it and refuse to get rid of it.
It must not be so bad, then, eh?
quote:
Since we live in a world now that wants to protect us from ourselves, why isn't TV more regulated? (this is a great topic)
Because there is a great deal of money to be made by appealing to the lowest common denominator in the American population.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 100 by riVeRraT, posted 09-19-2006 7:48 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 102 by riVeRraT, posted 09-20-2006 8:18 AM nator has replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 105 of 125 (350841)
09-20-2006 9:40 PM
Reply to: Message 102 by riVeRraT
09-20-2006 8:18 AM


Re: The possible
quote:
You mean to tell me you couldn't gather I was talking about the divorce rate?
What about it?
The divorce rate is around 20% in the US. That means that four out of five marriages are intact.
What is immoral about people wanting to make the strongest legally-binding commitment to each other that they can?
You haven't answered this question.
I should think you would want to encourage such commitments.
quote:
Making the commitment is one thing, sticking to it is another.
Irrelevant.
Why don't you want to encourage the greater committment that legal contracts afford? If you value them, why would you deny them to people who want them?
We should allow gay marriage because it's none of your business if gay people want to make a secular legal contract with each other.
quote:
Every law that goes into effect in this country IS my business.
"We the People"
There have been very many wildly popular laws (such as Jim Crow laws) which were also unconstitutional.
Denying people their constitutional rights is not decided upon by the majority, unless we change the constitution.
Are you saying you wish to change the US constitution to keep gays from marrying?
And, if you are right and straight people really have screwed up marriage, how does it follow that you should deny gays the right to marry because the straights can't get it right?
quote:
I am not denying anybody anything.
Please answer the question.
You noted that straights have screwed up marriage as if that was some justification for denying it to gays.
Why did you say that if you don't want to deny marriage to gays?
quote:
If you want to marry a monkey schraf, be my guest.
Irrelevant and avoidant.
quote:
From your statement, and your decision to not watch TV, I would say you don't really agree with what is on TV either. Yet we allow it.
There isn't much on TV that is worth the time I waste sitting on the couch.
But, why wouldn't I allow the existence of TV? It doesn't bother me.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 102 by riVeRraT, posted 09-20-2006 8:18 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 108 by riVeRraT, posted 09-21-2006 9:56 AM nator has replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 109 of 125 (350985)
09-21-2006 11:01 AM
Reply to: Message 107 by riVeRraT
09-21-2006 9:42 AM


Re: The possible
quote:
BTW, I consider simpsons crap, and I do not watch it.
The Simpson's is one of the best, most intelligent shows to ever be broadcast over the airwaves.
quote:
We don't know where your from, but here in NY, talk radio is horrible. It's worse than TV in some aspects.
National Public Radio isn't "talk radio" as you refer to it. It broadcasts no trash and is highly intelligent and educational as well as entertaining.
Here is a link to find the NPR affiliate closest to you.
quote:
I don't but others do, and it changes them, which in fact may one day cause harm to me, or one of my kids. Just look at the attitude of kids these days, and you'll understand why.
It is beyond me just not looking, it affects me, whether I watch it or not. It affects my children whether they watch it or not.
Well, then, we should abolish all religion, because it changes people and makes them believe all sorts of crazy stuff, and some of those who believe may decide they need to abuse or kill others because they don't believe the same as them.
Such is life, rat. You cannot control everyone else's life just because you are afraid of what might happen.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 107 by riVeRraT, posted 09-21-2006 9:42 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 111 by riVeRraT, posted 09-21-2006 5:25 PM nator has not replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 110 of 125 (350993)
09-21-2006 11:37 AM
Reply to: Message 108 by riVeRraT
09-21-2006 9:56 AM


Re: The possible
quote:
Last I heard, and last we argued, it was down to 50%.
That is a misleading, false statistic.
quote:
But some of those divorces are people who get more than one divorce.
...which skew the result to a misleading number. Most first marriages do not end in divorce (only about one third fail, and do so in the first 10 years). It's the people who marry and divorce many times that are driving these apparently high numbers.
There is some interesting data available on this subject.
here, here, here
And the actual rate does seem to depend upon which group one is referring to.
But 50% has never been true, as you noted in your link. The divorce rate in the US has never exceeded 41%, and among some groups (such as college-educated women, and also people marrying over the age of 20) it is much lower. It is much higher among other groups, like conservative Chritians.
quote:
Keep in mind schraf, and I say this to you and your husband with much love. If you guys ever decide to have kids, and you keep them from the TV, that all the kids they hang out with at school will be watching TV, and learning from it, then teaching it to your kids.
So what? I never said that TV is the devil. I am mostly bored to tears by it.
The issue with TV and children is that it is too often used as a babysitter and keeps small children from learning to entertain themselves. I'd rather have them play video games, honesly, and if there are DVD's appropriate for them, then they could watch those.
quote:
So your decision to not watch TV, or let your kids watch TV, will be irrelevant.
Hardly.
It's a lot like food.
Soda was never allowed in my house growing up, although I drank it at friends' houses and at fast food places. I don't buy it now, nor did I ever buy it on a regular basis. I never did the caffeine thing, either, so I don't drink tea or coffee except every once in a while.
My husband, however, always had soda, specifically cola, in his house growing up, and therefore always bought it in college and drank it almost every day (up until fairly recently) from a vending machine at work. He most likely has been addicted to caffeine for nearly 30 years, and has only recently stopped his daily consumption of soda in favor of tea.
quote:
It affects all the people around you, people you have to deal with every day.
Sure, and so does people's involvement in religion, if they are getting any sex, if they have recovered from their childhood emotional abuse, if they are taking any prescription or illicit drugs, etc. etc. etc.
Trying to control everyone else's life is fruitless, rat. If I find that someone is behaving badly to me or mine, I will deal with it with that individual, but other than that I have no reason to meddle in anothers' life.

"Science is like a blabbermouth who ruins a movie by telling you how it ends! Well I say there are some things we don't want to know! Important things!"
- Ned Flanders
"Question with boldness even the existence of God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear." - Thomas Jefferson

This message is a reply to:
 Message 108 by riVeRraT, posted 09-21-2006 9:56 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 112 by riVeRraT, posted 09-21-2006 5:31 PM nator has not replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 123 of 125 (351753)
09-24-2006 8:19 AM
Reply to: Message 122 by riVeRraT
09-23-2006 7:17 PM


Re: Your babas baffles are botched
quote:
What you perceive as bad, may not be bad to God. His ways are not our ways.
I thought that we gained the same ability as God to determine Good from Evil when Adam and Eve ate of the Tree in the Garden of Eden?
If we have the same ability as God, then certainly we can judge God's actions as stated by Him in the Bible, can't we?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 122 by riVeRraT, posted 09-23-2006 7:17 PM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 124 by riVeRraT, posted 09-26-2006 6:41 AM nator has not replied

  
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