Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 74 (8963 total)
304 online now:
DrJones*, Phat (AdminPhat) (2 members, 302 visitors)
Newest Member: Samuel567
Upcoming Birthdays: CosmicChimp
Post Volume: Total: 870,858 Year: 2,606/23,288 Month: 797/1,809 Week: 229/225 Day: 42/46 Hour: 2/7


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Looking for the Super-Genome. -And it ain't found
jar
Member
Posts: 32150
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 1 of 66 (351816)
09-24-2006 2:39 PM


written in the Year 5767
There is one well known place where we can look to see if there is ANY reality to the assertion of some super-genome and that is with Oetzi the Iceman.

What do we know about Oetzi?

First he was both contemporary with Adam and likely a Grandson.

He lived about 5300 years ago and so Adam was still alive.

His mitochondrial DNA is from the haplogroup K.

He was born and his childhood was near the present town of Feldthurns in what today is Italy, but then moved about 50 km south.

He was around 40-50 years old when he died.

He had eaten twice recently, one Chamois, the other Red Deer meat along with fruit and grain, likely bread.

His shoes were composite, soles of bear skin, uppers deerhide. They were insulated with grasses.

There was blood from four other people on him.

Pollen showed that he ate his last meal in a mid altitude conifer forest and that it was spring time.

The biggest thing is that NOTHING was very different. There were NO signs of some Super-Genome in his makeup, the makeup of the other people, the critters or food, the materials used.

So, if there was some super-genome, why are there no signs of it in the people, animals, plants, spores and pollen contemporary with Adam?

Edited by jar, : No reason given.

Edited by jar, : No reason given.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by Faith, posted 09-24-2006 5:05 PM jar has responded
 Message 4 by Leonidas, posted 09-24-2006 5:05 PM jar has not yet responded
 Message 5 by subbie, posted 09-24-2006 5:09 PM jar has not yet responded
 Message 42 by Phat, posted 11-27-2007 8:11 AM jar has responded
 Message 49 by Hyroglyphx, posted 11-28-2007 12:22 AM jar has responded
 Message 54 by Equinox, posted 11-28-2007 12:48 PM jar has not yet responded

  
AdminNosy
Administrator
Posts: 4754
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Joined: 11-11-2003


Message 2 of 66 (351824)
09-24-2006 3:59 PM


Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 34665
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 3 of 66 (351829)
09-24-2006 5:05 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by jar
09-24-2006 2:39 PM


Re: written in the Year 5767
There is one well known place where we can look to see if there is ANY reality to the assertion of some super-genome and that is with Oetzi the Iceman.
What do we know about Oetzi?

First he was both contemporary with Adam and likely a Grandson.

I would say, no, this is definitely not something you could KNOW about a mummified man, this is obviously interpretation. What is actually KNOWN about him? Perhaps that he was a certain height, had eaten certain foods, was dressed in a certain kind of garb, was found with certain items, these are the sort of things that can be actually KNOWN and even in these things there is room for error.

Age you cannot know, you can only speculate based on certain physical facts. What are those facts?

This is the most frustrating thing about reports from the sciences that follow the ToE, that the sheer facts are often not given but only the interpretation of them.

He lived about 5300 years ago and so Adam was still alive.

You cannot KNOW this, but only infer it from what are probably rather scanty facts. Please give all the kinds of evidence that were used to determine how long ago he lived.

His mitochondrial DNA is from the haplogroup K.

What does this mean and what are the implications of this classification? What condition was his DNA in? Were good samples obtainable or only fragments? How certain are the results of the analysis?

He was born and his childhood was near the present town of Feldthurns in what today is Italy, but then moved about 50 km south.

This is clearly quite complex interpretation of some simple physical facts. What are the simple physical facts and how did they lead to this complex interpretation? How can anybody think about what you are saying if you don't give the foundations of your interpretation? All this does is create mystification in the reader.

He was around 40-50 years old when he died.

This is no doubt based on particular physical facts too. Please provide. It shouldn't be hard to give good evidence in this case.

He had eaten twice recently, one Chamois, the other Red Deer meat along with fruit and grain, likely bread.

Yes, I read a discussion of this. Analysis of stomach contents. Not absolutely certain nevertheless, but likely.

His shoes were composite, soles of bear skin, uppers deerhide. They were insulated with grasses.

Now THAT is an actual fact for a change. I knew you had it in you! It could be more precisely stated of course -- "On his feet were found ... " etc. But I'll let you get away with that. A real fact! I'm SO happy.

There was blood from four other people on him.

Um, does this mean that there were minuscule spots and splotches of something found on and about him that when analyzed in a laboratory appeared to be human blood of four different types?

Pollen showed that he ate his last meal in a mid altitude conifer forest and that it was spring time.

Plausible but still interpretive. How can you be sure that the pollen got into his stomach while he was eating his meal or had perhaps traveled some distance with him first?

The biggest thing is that NOTHING was very different. There were NO signs of some Super-Genome in his makeup, the makeup of the other people, the critters or food, the materials used.

But it is more likely that the dating of him was WAY off.

So, if there was some super-genome, why are there no signs of it in the people, animals, plants, spores and pollen contemporary with Adam?

Well, the idea of the super genome is simply the most likely interpretation based on what we know from the Bible, but it could of course be wrong and need rethinking. But Oetzi doesn't prove much really since it's just the usual imaginative construction from who knows what.

How would you know what "animals, plants, spores and pollen" were "contemporary with Adam" anyway? Nothing in the above even discusses the age of these items or how they were analyzed. Nothing. Perhaps you could supply some discussion of the thinking that arrived at this conclusion, and the facts that were taken into account.

ALSO, other bodies have been found in this same glacier that were dated much later. A discussion of the differences between them and Oetzi -- the actual physical facts I mean -- might be most illuminating.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by jar, posted 09-24-2006 2:39 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by jar, posted 09-24-2006 5:23 PM Faith has responded
 Message 28 by Equinox, posted 09-26-2006 1:51 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
Leonidas
Inactive Member


Message 4 of 66 (351830)
09-24-2006 5:05 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by jar
09-24-2006 2:39 PM


Re: written in the Year 5767
Is it nessisary that every decendant of adam share his genome? We are desendants from Adam, if you assume creationism, and we have no "super genome."

This leads us to try to evolutionarily explain the process:

Question: when would said super genome have changed into modern day genome and what evolutionary pressures would drive it to show retrograde motion (in our eyes) changing from "super" to regular.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by jar, posted 09-24-2006 2:39 PM jar has not yet responded

  
subbie
Member (Idle past 156 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 5 of 66 (351831)
09-24-2006 5:09 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by jar
09-24-2006 2:39 PM


Re: written in the Year 5767
So, if there was some super-genome, why are there no signs of it in the people, animals, plants, spores and pollen contemporary with Adam?

The answer is so obvious that I'm surprised you even have to ask the question. As we know, being that it is so well-documented, the only survivors of the flood were Noah and his kin, as well as organisms found in Noah's general vicinity. There's no evidence that he ever went to Italy, so none of the stuff generally found in Italy would be likely to have been included on the Ark (pizza, pasta, unicorns, that sort of thing). God, being the efficient fellow that he is, certainly wouldn't have wasted any of his super-genomes on organisms that weren't going to survive the flood anyway. I imagine the production costs of the super-genome were much higher than for your run of the mill stuff. Thus, there's no reason to suppose that the super-genome would be found in Italy. On the contrary, creationism clearly predicts that such genomes would NOT be found there. Thus, the absence of the super-genome actually SUPPORTS creationism.

You are simply misinterpreting the evidence in accordance with your pre-existing bias in favor of science, ... I mean evolution.


Those who would sacrifice an essential liberty for a temporary security will lose both, and deserve neither. -- Benjamin Franklin

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by jar, posted 09-24-2006 2:39 PM jar has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 32150
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 6 of 66 (351835)
09-24-2006 5:23 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by Faith
09-24-2006 5:05 PM


Re: written in the Year 5767
jar writes:

There is one well known place where we can look to see if there is ANY reality to the assertion of some super-genome and that is with Oetzi the Iceman.
What do we know about Oetzi?

First he was both contemporary with Adam and likely a Grandson.

to which Faith asserted:

quote:
I would say, no, this is definitely not something you could KNOW about a mummified man, this is obviously interpretation.

Why not? Who else could be his parent except Adam or one of Adams kids?

This is the Year 5767. Oetzi lived about 5300 years ago. That certainly makes him contemporary with Adam.

Edited by jar, : add year info


Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Faith, posted 09-24-2006 5:05 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by Faith, posted 09-24-2006 5:30 PM jar has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 34665
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 7 of 66 (351838)
09-24-2006 5:30 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by jar
09-24-2006 5:23 PM


Re: written in the Year 5767
This is the Year 5767. Oetzi lived about 5300 years ago. That certainly makes him contemporary with Adam.

Oh I see. So they also found on his person a document dated 467 Adam Time or something like that? Well why didn't you SAY so?

Again, the age of this mummy is sheer speculation. What are the actual facts from which it was inferred?

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by jar, posted 09-24-2006 5:23 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by jar, posted 09-24-2006 5:32 PM Faith has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 32150
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 8 of 66 (351840)
09-24-2006 5:32 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by Faith
09-24-2006 5:30 PM


Re: written in the Year 5767
They can't possibly know how old this mummy is.

Why NOT Faith.

Edited by AdminFaith, : No reason given.

Edited by AdminFaith, : No reason given.

Edited by AdminFaith, : Sorry, I inadvertently hit Edit as Admin. Hope I've corrected it back to the original.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by Faith, posted 09-24-2006 5:30 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by Faith, posted 09-24-2006 5:40 PM jar has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 34665
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 9 of 66 (351846)
09-24-2006 5:40 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by jar
09-24-2006 5:32 PM


Re: written in the Year 5767
They can't possibly know how old this mummy is.

Why NOT Faith.

Well, theoretically they could possibly have a good idea, but you haven't shown that there is any reason to accept this. I reworded it to say that the statement about age is nothing but speculation. Interpretation. As I originally said in my first post. Your OP was almost nothing but interpretation, almost nothing in the way of actual fact. That was the whole point of my answer to you. Please supply the actual physical evidence upon which the age calculation is based and how the inference was made from it. Thank you.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by jar, posted 09-24-2006 5:32 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by jar, posted 09-24-2006 5:49 PM Faith has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 32150
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 10 of 66 (351851)
09-24-2006 5:49 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by Faith
09-24-2006 5:40 PM


Re: written in the Year 5767
You still have not shown any reason why he cannot be dated or why it is interpretation.

The age of the mummy, 5,350-5,100 years before present, as assessed by radiocarbon dating, has offered scientists a unique opportunity to investigate the life and health status of a Late Neolithic human

from here

The significance is that ALL of the items date to the same time, not just one. There is NO iterpretation involved. Oetzi lived at the time you claim Adam lived.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by Faith, posted 09-24-2006 5:40 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by Faith, posted 09-24-2006 5:54 PM jar has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 34665
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 11 of 66 (351858)
09-24-2006 5:54 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by jar
09-24-2006 5:49 PM


Re: written in the Year 5767
Sigh. Radiocarbon dating. That's all. Oh well. I'm not surprised. I'd hoped for something more along the lines of forensic deduction from the facts. Sorry, there's nothing to discuss here I guess. I just don't accept radiocarbon dating. That in itself is simply based on assumptions that can't be proved, about regular rates of decay through unknown conditions.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by jar, posted 09-24-2006 5:49 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by jar, posted 09-24-2006 6:05 PM Faith has responded
 Message 14 by NosyNed, posted 09-24-2006 6:14 PM Faith has responded
 Message 31 by Dr Adequate, posted 09-26-2006 2:43 PM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 36 by bluescat48, posted 11-17-2007 12:00 AM Faith has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 32150
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 12 of 66 (351862)
09-24-2006 6:05 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by Faith
09-24-2006 5:54 PM


Re: written in the Year 5767
That still does not answer the question of why there is NO super genome as when we look at contemporaries of Adam.

There is an additional issue. As presented in the OP

His mitochondrial DNA is from the haplogroup K.

That is very important. As a contemporary of Adam, his His mitochondrial DNA is very close to Eve. Yet it is not some supergroup but rather from one haplogroup, infact a sub-group even of that, exactly the opposite of what would be predicted if there was some super-genome.

There is also no supergenome seen in any of the things found with Oetzi.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by Faith, posted 09-24-2006 5:54 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by Faith, posted 09-24-2006 6:13 PM jar has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 34665
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 13 of 66 (351868)
09-24-2006 6:13 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by jar
09-24-2006 6:05 PM


No proof of how old this mummy is
You haven't proved he was a contemporary of Adam. Prove that and then we'll discuss the super genome and whether or not he has it and what it would look like. But there is no reason to believe he is a contemporary of Adam. Maybe a few hundred years old or a couple thousand, but no way to know that I can see since radiocarbon dating is as good as wild guessing.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by jar, posted 09-24-2006 6:05 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by jar, posted 09-24-2006 6:19 PM Faith has responded

  
NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8894
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003
Member Rating: 4.3


Message 14 of 66 (351871)
09-24-2006 6:14 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by Faith
09-24-2006 5:54 PM


OT on dating
You gave up on dating Faith. You were totally unable to explain why we observe the FACTS that we do.

The most likely, highly, superduper likely, nearly 100% reason we observe those FACTS is that dating is working just as we think it is.

To suggest anything else is delusional. To suggest anything else without being able to suggest ANY other explanation is intellectually dishonest.

Dating is, of course, off topic here. When you have anything more than your clutching at straws wishful thinking on the topic please take it to the appropriate thread.

Edited by NosyNed, : to wrap it


This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by Faith, posted 09-24-2006 5:54 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by Faith, posted 09-24-2006 6:16 PM NosyNed has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 34665
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 15 of 66 (351872)
09-24-2006 6:16 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by NosyNed
09-24-2006 6:14 PM


Re: OT on dating
Huh?

Jar wrote a whole OP with about 2% of facts and all the rest speculation and you are getting on MY case? Carbon dating has about the same degree of plausibility as all that speculation.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by NosyNed, posted 09-24-2006 6:14 PM NosyNed has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 16 by NosyNed, posted 09-24-2006 6:18 PM Faith has responded

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2018 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2020