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Author Topic:   Looking for the Super-Genome. -And it ain't found
jar
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Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 1 of 66 (351816)
09-24-2006 2:39 PM


written in the Year 5767
There is one well known place where we can look to see if there is ANY reality to the assertion of some super-genome and that is with Oetzi the Iceman.

What do we know about Oetzi?

First he was both contemporary with Adam and likely a Grandson.

He lived about 5300 years ago and so Adam was still alive.

His mitochondrial DNA is from the haplogroup K.

He was born and his childhood was near the present town of Feldthurns in what today is Italy, but then moved about 50 km south.

He was around 40-50 years old when he died.

He had eaten twice recently, one Chamois, the other Red Deer meat along with fruit and grain, likely bread.

His shoes were composite, soles of bear skin, uppers deerhide. They were insulated with grasses.

There was blood from four other people on him.

Pollen showed that he ate his last meal in a mid altitude conifer forest and that it was spring time.

The biggest thing is that NOTHING was very different. There were NO signs of some Super-Genome in his makeup, the makeup of the other people, the critters or food, the materials used.

So, if there was some super-genome, why are there no signs of it in the people, animals, plants, spores and pollen contemporary with Adam?

Edited by jar, : No reason given.

Edited by jar, : No reason given.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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jar
Member
Posts: 32150
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 6 of 66 (351835)
09-24-2006 5:23 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by Faith
09-24-2006 5:05 PM


Re: written in the Year 5767
jar writes:

There is one well known place where we can look to see if there is ANY reality to the assertion of some super-genome and that is with Oetzi the Iceman.
What do we know about Oetzi?

First he was both contemporary with Adam and likely a Grandson.

to which Faith asserted:

quote:
I would say, no, this is definitely not something you could KNOW about a mummified man, this is obviously interpretation.

Why not? Who else could be his parent except Adam or one of Adams kids?

This is the Year 5767. Oetzi lived about 5300 years ago. That certainly makes him contemporary with Adam.

Edited by jar, : add year info


Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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jar
Member
Posts: 32150
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 8 of 66 (351840)
09-24-2006 5:32 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by Faith
09-24-2006 5:30 PM


Re: written in the Year 5767
They can't possibly know how old this mummy is.

Why NOT Faith.

Edited by AdminFaith, : No reason given.

Edited by AdminFaith, : No reason given.

Edited by AdminFaith, : Sorry, I inadvertently hit Edit as Admin. Hope I've corrected it back to the original.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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jar
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Posts: 32150
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 10 of 66 (351851)
09-24-2006 5:49 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by Faith
09-24-2006 5:40 PM


Re: written in the Year 5767
You still have not shown any reason why he cannot be dated or why it is interpretation.

The age of the mummy, 5,350-5,100 years before present, as assessed by radiocarbon dating, has offered scientists a unique opportunity to investigate the life and health status of a Late Neolithic human

from here

The significance is that ALL of the items date to the same time, not just one. There is NO iterpretation involved. Oetzi lived at the time you claim Adam lived.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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jar
Member
Posts: 32150
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 12 of 66 (351862)
09-24-2006 6:05 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by Faith
09-24-2006 5:54 PM


Re: written in the Year 5767
That still does not answer the question of why there is NO super genome as when we look at contemporaries of Adam.

There is an additional issue. As presented in the OP

His mitochondrial DNA is from the haplogroup K.

That is very important. As a contemporary of Adam, his His mitochondrial DNA is very close to Eve. Yet it is not some supergroup but rather from one haplogroup, infact a sub-group even of that, exactly the opposite of what would be predicted if there was some super-genome.

There is also no supergenome seen in any of the things found with Oetzi.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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jar
Member
Posts: 32150
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 17 of 66 (351875)
09-24-2006 6:19 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by Faith
09-24-2006 6:13 PM


Re: written in the Year 5767
You haven't proved he was a contemporary of Adam. Prove that and then we'll discuss the super genome and whether or not he has it and what it would look like. But there is no reason to believe he is a contemporary of Adam. Maybe a few hundred years old.

Okay, now you have made an assertion. I have radiocarbon dating not just of Oetzi, but other items found with Oetzi.

What is your evidence that he is only a few hundred years old?

How many folk in the 1700s wore clothing like Oetzis?

How many folk in the 1700s ate food like Oetzi?

How many folk in the 1700s were armed like Oetzi?

How many folk in the 1700s were killed by arrows like those used to kill Oetzi?

Why isn't the sub-group he belongs to found in the area today?


Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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jar
Member
Posts: 32150
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 21 of 66 (351902)
09-24-2006 8:23 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by Faith
09-24-2006 6:53 PM


Re: No evidence from you yet, jar. Please provide
Well I have provided the evidence that he is about 5300 years old. Since this year is 5767, we DO know what the environment was like when Adam lived.

So let's move on to the question related to his mitochondrial DNA. It is from the haplogroup K and infact a sub-group of the K group. Since he is obviously a child or grandchild of Eve, why is the mitochondrial DNA from a sub-group?


Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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jar
Member
Posts: 32150
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 33 of 66 (354018)
10-03-2006 8:25 PM


Bump to make sure everyone knows the Super-Genome is nonsense.
Just bringing this back to the top to remind all the Biblical Creationists that the existance of some super-genome has been falsified.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion

  
jar
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Posts: 32150
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 35 of 66 (434701)
11-16-2007 10:26 PM


Death of the Super Genome
So we still see no indication of any "Super Genome".


Aslan is not a Tame Lion

  
jar
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Posts: 32150
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 39 of 66 (436638)
11-26-2007 9:52 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by ChibiQ
11-26-2007 9:40 PM


Re: No evidence from you yet, jar. Please provide
Nothing. If Eve had existed, it is very likely though that Oetzi is a child or at most grand-child of Eve.

It would be unexpected to find that much change in simply one generation, two, maybe three at most. If things were mutating that fast, we should see even greater differences between the various genomes found and what is seen today.

But we didn't.

Everything was pretty normal. Nothing very surprising genetically.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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jar
Member
Posts: 32150
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 43 of 66 (436748)
11-27-2007 12:17 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by Phat
11-27-2007 8:11 AM


Re: What is this theory of a Super Genome, anyway?
Well, as usual, when you try to pin down a Creationist on the exact model you find they simply run away, change the subject, palm the pea or respond with nonsense. But it is basically that life today is actually devolved from previous higher state, with the classic non-specificity that the earlier period might be before the fall or before the flood depending one whichever fantasy the creationist happens to be defending at the time.

The beauty of Oetzi though was in one event we got to sample the makeup of a whole ecosystem. We have Oetzi's genes, pollen, skin and hides, grasses, what he ate that day, blood from several other people, wood materials. It was amazing. In addition to genetic makeup we got physical evidence, mineralogy, fungus to test, just a wealth of information about that area at the time Adam would have been alive.

And the only possible conclusion was, the world at that time, the people at that time, the genomes at that time, the minerals at that time, the plants and animals and fungus at that time were pretty much just like they are today.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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jar
Member
Posts: 32150
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 45 of 66 (436768)
11-27-2007 1:26 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by ChibiQ
11-27-2007 1:22 PM


Re: No evidence from you yet, jar. Please provide
What about the article "Calibrating the Mitochondrial Clock" by Ann Gibbons, which basically states that Mitochondrial DNA, in some cases, mutate much faster than expected?

LOL

Sure. Too funny.

In this case we are looking as I said at two, maybe three generations.

Get serious.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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jar
Member
Posts: 32150
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 48 of 66 (436778)
11-27-2007 2:15 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by ChibiQ
11-27-2007 1:43 PM


Re: No evidence from you yet, jar. Please provide
HUH?

What does any of this have to do with the topic?


Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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jar
Member
Posts: 32150
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 51 of 66 (436964)
11-28-2007 10:12 AM
Reply to: Message 49 by Hyroglyphx
11-28-2007 12:22 AM


Re: written in the Year 5767
WK covered most of it, but there is a little more. The first time I remember hearing the idea put forward was in relation to the then new information being found that there were different genetic groups. The idea presented was that Adam and Eve's genes would have contained all the possible variations and that their children just inherited some of the genetic information from the parents. This was, IIRC the beginnings of the Super Genome idea.

The concept was an attempt to explain all the variety seen as something other than "New Information" and there were lots of examples tossed around, comparisons to hands of cards being different but still just a subgrouping of the original 52 cards.

The idea was of devolution where each succeeding generation would have less perfection, less of the original genetic material.

There is a similar version that uses a Super-Genome in a slightly different way, as something that drives Super-Hyper Speed evolution. This version says that all the life we see comes from evolution of the "Kinds" taken on the ARK. Well, to get what we see if there was an initial population of only two to seven of each kind requires evolution at a speed simply unimaginable.

But what Oetzi shows us is that things just weren't all that different even during the time Adam supposedly lived. There just isn't some Super-Genome or Super-Hyper Speed Evolution.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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jar
Member
Posts: 32150
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 52 of 66 (436995)
11-28-2007 12:31 PM
Reply to: Message 49 by Hyroglyphx
11-28-2007 12:22 AM


Re: written in the Year 5767
Just to give you an example that just came up at EvC. In Message 42 Beretta posts:

Forget the modern banana and the original banana -they're all still bananas -perhaps with a little loss of information from the original -but noways is it going anywhere.

It is that idea that some original kind held all the information, had a Super Genome, that I am trying to address.

The facts are as Oetzi shows, there just plain ain't much difference between critters and plants from 6000 years ago and today. There was no Super Genome.

The facts are that bananas are part of the same order as ginger and arrowroot and cardamom and a host of other related plants.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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