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Author Topic:   Definitions, Daffynitions, Delusions, Logic and Critical Thinking.
iano
Member (Idle past 1967 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 12 of 49 (352309)
09-26-2006 6:11 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by RAZD
09-24-2006 8:21 PM


Can we use a somewhat neutral definition such as the first hit in Google such as:
quote:
A transitional fossil is the fossil remains of a creature that exhibits (according to evolutionary theory) primitive traits in comparison with the more (according to evolutionary theory) derived life-forms it is (according to evolutionary theory) related to.
According to evolutionary theory, a transitional form represents an evolutionary stage.
I've added in parentheses what is excluded (for some reason) from the first half of the definition. Thus we can read the second half of the definition better as
quote:
According to evolutionary theory, a 'transitional form' is a description that is assumed to factually describe a fossil exibiting features assumed of it as described above
Now that's what I call a neutral definition.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by RAZD, posted 09-24-2006 8:21 PM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by RAZD, posted 09-26-2006 7:47 AM iano has replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1967 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 17 of 49 (352332)
09-26-2006 8:28 AM
Reply to: Message 14 by RAZD
09-26-2006 7:47 AM


Re: another example.
A transitional fossil is the fossil remains of a creature that exhibits certain primitive (or basal) traits in comparison with its more derived descendants. "Missing link" is a popular term used for transitional forms. According to modern evolutionary theory, all populations of organisms are in transition. Therefore, a "transitional form" is a human construct that vividly represents a particular evolutionary stage, as recognized in hindsight.
That is better. The definition is tied in which the assumption that evolution occurs in the TOE sense. For a transitional fossil to exist evolution must be presumed to occur. If it wasn't then there would be no talk of "derived descendants". Thus it is not a scientific definition as such but an evolutionary science definition
So Iano, do transitional fossils exist that meet the criteria of the scientific definition? A simple yes or no eh?
Had you worded it so...
"So, Iano, do fossils exist that meet the criteria of the evolutionary scientific definition of transitional fossils. A simple yes or no eh?"
..then I would have answered a hearty yes

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by RAZD, posted 09-26-2006 7:47 AM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by subbie, posted 09-26-2006 8:36 AM iano has replied
 Message 22 by MangyTiger, posted 09-26-2006 3:42 PM iano has not replied
 Message 23 by RAZD, posted 09-26-2006 4:41 PM iano has not replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1967 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 19 of 49 (352336)
09-26-2006 8:46 AM
Reply to: Message 18 by subbie
09-26-2006 8:36 AM


Re: another example.
Put it this way, if live evolves, there will be transitional organisms, whether we assume life evolves or not.
And if evolution is assumed to happen then fossils exhibiting certain characteristics will be slotted in as transitional because the assumption demands that there be some.
I dealing with the rather narrow issue of defining a transitional. And the definitions so far assume the traits to be transitional (derived descendent is the term used) which make the definitions evolutionist definitions not scientific ones. Razd quoted what was described as a neutral (read: scientific) definition when it most certainly is not.
His complaint seems to be that opponants twist 'scientific definitions' whereas they are actually evolutionist definitions of fossils found. If it is as I see it then its a complaint that rings hollow. "You may oppose but you must assume our definitions to correctly describe the fossil found"
Edited by iano, : No reason given.
Edited by iano, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by subbie, posted 09-26-2006 8:36 AM subbie has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by Quetzal, posted 09-26-2006 9:34 AM iano has not replied
 Message 21 by subbie, posted 09-26-2006 9:46 AM iano has not replied
 Message 24 by Nighttrain, posted 09-28-2006 7:23 AM iano has not replied
 Message 37 by Dr Adequate, posted 10-01-2006 1:28 AM iano has not replied

  
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