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Author Topic:   Kids, Politics and Religion.
Larni
Member (Idle past 163 days)
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 16 of 29 (352369)
09-26-2006 11:38 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by riVeRraT
09-26-2006 6:54 AM


Re: With apologies to David Letterman.
RRar writes:
You can't force your kids to believe anything.
This is so untrue! If you teach a kid from day one that such and such is true it will take a hell of an effort to de-program him/her.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by riVeRraT, posted 09-26-2006 6:54 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
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dwise1
Member
Posts: 5930
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.8


Message 17 of 29 (352372)
09-26-2006 11:42 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Larni
09-25-2006 8:24 AM


Alongside the freeway on the way to where our church (UU) used to meet, there was a Christian school at the foot of a hill. At that time, every December they would mount a gigantic nativity scene on that hillside -- gigantic as in several stories high.
Our minister at the time address the question of whether to teach our children our own religious beliefs. Refering to his own pre-school daughter and to that school with the nativity monstrosity, he stated that he would definitely want to get to his daughter before those people did.
We taught our own children to be loving and caring and considerate and honesty and helpful. And we answered their questions as honestly and truthfully as we could. Dogma and doctrine did not enter into the mix, as they are unimportant compared with those other core teachings.
From the Pirke Avoth ("Sayings of the Fathers") comes the story of the Pharisee Rabbi Hillel. A gentile had earlier approached the Sadducee head rabbi asking him to recite the whole of the Law while standing on one foot -- the Law was the Torah, the first five books of the OT, and study at these academies included memorizing the entire Torah. The Sadducee chased him away for his insolance. When he demanded the same of the Pharisees, Rabbi Hillel responded, "Do not to others that which is displeasing to yourself. That is the whole of the Law. The rest is just explanation. Now go and learn it."
This Pharisee teaching of the Golden Rule was circa 20 BCE, about 50 years before the NT has Jesus teaching it.
Edited by dwise1, : No reason given.
Edited by dwise1, : Added what we did
But accidentally put the edit reason in the Message Subtitle, so had to come back in to correct that

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Larni, posted 09-25-2006 8:24 AM Larni has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by Larni, posted 09-26-2006 11:45 AM dwise1 has replied

  
Larni
Member (Idle past 163 days)
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 18 of 29 (352374)
09-26-2006 11:43 AM
Reply to: Message 15 by Brian
09-26-2006 11:35 AM


Brian writes:
Anyone teaching their kids that 2 + 2 = 5, which is the equivalent of teaching a 6000 year universe or a literal Flood, should have their kids taken into care.
Damn straight. Thats part of my point. Is not teaching ones own religion (over and above all else) limiting their horizons? Is it not cruel?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by Brian, posted 09-26-2006 11:35 AM Brian has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by Brian, posted 09-26-2006 11:47 AM Larni has not replied
 Message 21 by iano, posted 09-26-2006 12:00 PM Larni has not replied

  
Larni
Member (Idle past 163 days)
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 19 of 29 (352375)
09-26-2006 11:45 AM
Reply to: Message 17 by dwise1
09-26-2006 11:42 AM


That approach kind of removes the choice from a child don't you think?
Puts me in mind of kids being a spiritual commodity.

This message is a reply to:
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 Message 23 by ohnhai, posted 09-26-2006 12:20 PM Larni has not replied

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 20 of 29 (352376)
09-26-2006 11:47 AM
Reply to: Message 18 by Larni
09-26-2006 11:43 AM


Yes, it is cruel.
Christians would be the first to condemn a cult that uses underhand techniques to get a grip on their next recruit (and victim). Yet many Christians do exactly the same as modern day cults.
Prey on the vulnerable for example, a technique of many cults, and you don't get much more vulnerable than a starving child in an African village, a prime target for Christian missionaries.
Brian.

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iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 21 of 29 (352381)
09-26-2006 12:00 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by Larni
09-26-2006 11:43 AM


Are you suggesting that ones worldview (for that is what a religion falls under) should not be taught? Fair enough. But if you live in a secularly humanistic world then that view gets first divs on the blank canvas you suggest leaving. Or perhaps more likely; some mish mash a la carte mess made up of all the views they will come across. Very new age that.
Give a them one coherant view and they can at least measure the coherancy of others whilst making up their own minds. Seems the least worst option to me.
I perish the thought of little minds being constricted into thinking that all they can know is that which is empirically demonstrable.
Edited by iano, : No reason given.
Edited by iano, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
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dwise1
Member
Posts: 5930
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.8


Message 22 of 29 (352383)
09-26-2006 12:01 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by Larni
09-26-2006 11:45 AM


Let's see. Imparting our own religious values of an open-ended search for the truth. Or leave them completely defenseless in the face of a religious sect that would imprison their minds and souls through lies and deception (for which you may read "creation science", among other things).
Hmm. Why does that appear to be an easy choice? Our way would enable them to search and examine and to arrive at their own spiritual conclusions. The other way would have reduced them to "canon fodder" [spelling of "canon" is deliberate].

This message is a reply to:
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ohnhai
Member (Idle past 5162 days)
Posts: 649
From: Melbourne, Australia
Joined: 11-17-2004


Message 23 of 29 (352387)
09-26-2006 12:20 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by Larni
09-26-2006 11:45 AM


Puts me in mind of kids being a spiritual commodity.
Exactly the way those who run the 'Jesus Camps' see it. "THEY are turning their children in to warriors for their god. We should do the same"

This message is a reply to:
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riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 415 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 24 of 29 (352400)
09-26-2006 12:55 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by Larni
09-26-2006 11:38 AM


Re: With apologies to David Letterman.
This is so untrue! If you teach a kid from day one that such and such is true it will take a hell of an effort to de-program him/her.
Your only partially right. I should have clarified more. Was I was indicating was that, you could teach them to believe this and that, they may believe that for awhile. Eventually, the world will show them different, and they will form their own independent opinions.
The factors involved in this are way to varying for it to be an absolute. You would have to take into account the intelligence of the persons involved, and what they went through in life, how much exposure they will have. No matter what, life will teach you more lessons than anything else. You can choose whether what your parents taught is correct for you or not.
But I see forcing your opinion on your kids as being a wrong way of going about raising your kids. If your opinion of life is correct, and you give your kids the choice, and you show them why it is correct, then they should have no other option but to choose what is right for them, no matter how long it takes. It's called a learning curve.
I am a pretty good example of all that at work(freedom of choice). My mother and father (divorced) are like two different ends of the stick. While I am more like my father, and see eye to eye with him 90% of the time, there are still differences. I only see eye to eye with my mom like 50% of the time. I am just glad they always gave me the room to make my own choice about the subjects we are talking about.
Of course there are things that you should not let your kids make choices about, like dropping out of school. While it may seem like conflict to them, we know what is better for them, most of the time. Still we need to explain, AND show to them why, to give them the tools they need to be successful in life.
Added thought. I Was just thinking about how I make my kids go to church with me, and some would see that as me forcing my religion on them. Well unfortunatly for them, they cannot stay at home alone, while I am in church. When they get old enough too, they can. But keep in mind, even though they are going to church with me, I do not force them to believe in God, or Jesus. I just explain to them, why I believe, and tell them they can make their own choices. I explain that there will be much confusion in life regarding this subject.
If Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit is the ultimate truth, and I do a good job of conveying that truth through my love for them, and through my love of God, then they will come to know the truth all on their own. They will choose when they believe in God or not, and at that time they can be baptised in water to show their choice. Until them, God will show them the way, and teach them what He wants to teach them.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by Larni, posted 09-26-2006 11:38 AM Larni has not replied

Replies to this message:
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Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 25 of 29 (352401)
09-26-2006 12:59 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by riVeRraT
09-26-2006 12:55 PM


Re: With apologies to David Letterman.
RiverRat writes:
I see forcing your opinion on your kids as being a wrong way of going about raising your kids. If your opinion of life is correct, and you give your kids the choice, and you show them why it is correct, then they should have no other option but to choose what is right for them, no matter how long it takes.
Train them up by showing them many sides of an argument. Explain to them why you hold the views and beliefs that you do. Live an honest life in front of them.
They may not choose to be or think as you do, but it will be their free choice, which is what God would want.
Right?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by riVeRraT, posted 09-26-2006 12:55 PM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by riVeRraT, posted 09-26-2006 7:06 PM Phat has not replied
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riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 415 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 26 of 29 (352456)
09-26-2006 7:06 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by Phat
09-26-2006 12:59 PM


Re: With apologies to David Letterman.
Train them up by showing them many sides of an argument. Explain to them why you hold the views and beliefs that you do. Live an honest life in front of them.
They may not choose to be or think as you do, but it will be their free choice, which is what God would want.
Right?
Exactly. They are God's children, I am just in charge of raising them.
That's my belief.

This message is a reply to:
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alonsofries
Inactive Member


Message 27 of 29 (352538)
09-27-2006 3:07 AM
Reply to: Message 14 by Silent H
09-26-2006 11:23 AM


Hokmes, I was just been cynical

This message is a reply to:
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Larni
Member (Idle past 163 days)
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 28 of 29 (352563)
09-27-2006 5:11 AM
Reply to: Message 25 by Phat
09-26-2006 12:59 PM


Re: With apologies to David Letterman.
Phat writes:
Train them up by showing them many sides of an argument.
Good point Phat: I think is right; teach ones kids about many religions equally. This gives them choice.

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Replies to this message:
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U can call me Cookie
Member (Idle past 4953 days)
Posts: 228
From: jo'burg, RSA
Joined: 11-15-2005


Message 29 of 29 (352599)
09-27-2006 8:45 AM
Reply to: Message 28 by Larni
09-27-2006 5:11 AM


freedom of choice
Larni writes:
I think is right; teach ones kids about many religions equally. This gives them choice.
Pretty much how i feel.
Children should be provided with knowledge, and the skills / ability to deal with life and said knowledge.
When the time comes that they are able to make the choices themselves, they will... or perhaps they won't... But the choice will be theirs.

"The good Christian should beware the mathematician and all those who make empty prophecies. The danger already exists that the mathematicians have made a covenant with the devil to darken the spirit and to confine man in the bonds of hell." - St. Augustine

This message is a reply to:
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