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Author Topic:   Looking for the Super-Genome. -And it ain't found
NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8892
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 16 of 66 (351874)
09-24-2006 6:18 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by Faith
09-24-2006 6:16 PM


Re: OT on dating
If you have ANYTHING to say on that topic take it to the appropriate threads. You GAVE UP; remember?

This message is a reply to:
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jar
Member
Posts: 32024
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 17 of 66 (351875)
09-24-2006 6:19 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by Faith
09-24-2006 6:13 PM


Re: written in the Year 5767
You haven't proved he was a contemporary of Adam. Prove that and then we'll discuss the super genome and whether or not he has it and what it would look like. But there is no reason to believe he is a contemporary of Adam. Maybe a few hundred years old.

Okay, now you have made an assertion. I have radiocarbon dating not just of Oetzi, but other items found with Oetzi.

What is your evidence that he is only a few hundred years old?

How many folk in the 1700s wore clothing like Oetzis?

How many folk in the 1700s ate food like Oetzi?

How many folk in the 1700s were armed like Oetzi?

How many folk in the 1700s were killed by arrows like those used to kill Oetzi?

Why isn't the sub-group he belongs to found in the area today?


Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by Faith, posted 09-24-2006 6:13 PM Faith has responded

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Faith
Member
Posts: 34421
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 18 of 66 (351885)
09-24-2006 6:53 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by jar
09-24-2006 6:19 PM


No evidence from you yet, jar. Please provide
I didn't give a hard and fast date and you know it. I said a few hundred years or a couple thousand because so far no real evidence has been given to work from.

Oh except those shoes. But nothing about what culture those shoes suggest either. I think those shoes are very interesting. Perhaps they were a creation of his very own.

As usual you are simply avoiding the points I made in my first post about your lack of evidence for all those interpretations that you were palming off as known facts.

Again, please provide the evidence that was so sorely lacking in your OP.

Until then, end of discussion.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


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Faith
Member
Posts: 34421
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 19 of 66 (351890)
09-24-2006 7:08 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by NosyNed
09-24-2006 6:18 PM


Re: OT on dating
I don't accept carbon dating, never have. It proves nothing. I have said, however, that I don't understand it well enough to discuss it and will concede the point when the discussion gets technical.

But I know enough to distrust it on the ground that decay rates can't be known for sure in the past in all conditions. If that's a new position, then it's the one I hold on this thread.

Since it's off topic, there should be nothing more to say about it.


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Lithodid-Man
Member (Idle past 1315 days)
Posts: 504
From: Juneau, Alaska, USA
Joined: 03-22-2004


Message 20 of 66 (351894)
09-24-2006 7:40 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by Faith
09-24-2006 6:53 PM


Dating the Ice Man - very much on topic
Faith,

I understand your point. We cannot further the topic until it is established that Oetzi is around 5000 years old. I wish that you would open your mind a bit regarding radiocarbon dating. The accuracy of this method, especially now, is amazing. It is not wild guess, it is not choosing the date that you want. Typically each test consists of three or more independant tests. The variance between these is used to determine the confidence level. In the case of the tissue from the iceman the confidence level was 95.4% that the find was between 5100 and 5300 years old. What is significant about the iceman dating was this range of dates was INDEPENDANTLY arrived at though C-14 dating of his tissue, clothing, food, arrows, grasses in his shoes, etc. Everything associated with the find is the same range of dates. Try to imagine that if C-14 were just a wild guess what would be the odds that every single sample would show the same date, especially when each is repeated at least three times.

Leaving this behind. The copper axe and arrowhead types are those of types known only from before 4000 years ago. The wood found associated with the find has been tree-ring dated to over 5000 years old. Animal dung associated with the find (as well as that missing but found older and younger) indicate that the iceman was crossing the pass during a warm period when the pass was relativey ice-free. Pollen and samples of alpine plants not currently found at that altitude indicate a temperature regime warmer than today. This corresponds to the "mid Holocene warming period that lasted from 7000 to 5000 years ago (check out http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/paleo/globalwarming/holocene.html for a description of this period).

So in summary the age of the iceman is not based on one radiocarbon test. It is dozens of radiocarbon tests ALL coming to the same conclusion. The archaeological evidence points to a minimum age of 4000 years old. The tree ring dating says over 5000 years old. The plants growing where he died when he died only grew there between 7000 and 5000 years ago. And the animal dung found are from species no longer present at that altitude but, like the plants, were there during the mid Holocene warming period. I hope this helps so that we can get into the genome questions!

The radiocarbon and other dating methods of the iceman are from: shortened link
Which is also a very good summary of radiocarbon dating and quite easy to read as well.

Edited by AdminJar, : shorten link

Edited by Lithodid-Man, : Edited to correct spelling


Doctor Bashir: "Of all the stories you told me, which were true and which weren't?"
Elim Garak: "My dear Doctor, they're all true"
Doctor Bashir: "Even the lies?"
Elim Garak: "Especially the lies"

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jar
Member
Posts: 32024
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 21 of 66 (351902)
09-24-2006 8:23 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by Faith
09-24-2006 6:53 PM


Re: No evidence from you yet, jar. Please provide
Well I have provided the evidence that he is about 5300 years old. Since this year is 5767, we DO know what the environment was like when Adam lived.

So let's move on to the question related to his mitochondrial DNA. It is from the haplogroup K and infact a sub-group of the K group. Since he is obviously a child or grandchild of Eve, why is the mitochondrial DNA from a sub-group?


Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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Taz
Member (Idle past 1676 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 22 of 66 (351923)
09-24-2006 10:27 PM


A quick question. If a super-genome was found in the iceman, would Faith be objecting to the accuracy of the various dating methods involved? What if there was a letter on him that said something like, "I'm sorry for eating that forbidden fruit and doomed you and your descendants to a life of harsh living. Sincerely, Adam, your grandfather."?

Edited by gasby, : grammar...


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kuresu
Member (Idle past 898 days)
Posts: 2544
From: boulder, colorado
Joined: 03-24-2006


Message 23 of 66 (351933)
09-24-2006 11:01 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by Taz
09-24-2006 10:27 PM


that would prove evolution and the genesis in one stroke--Adam and Eve did exist, eating the fruit and damning us for all eternity, and we do evolve, because the lack of supergenomes means that kind is an inaccurate interpretation, or some shit like that.

(take that robin--trad. christianity and evolution, compatible, and reasonable)

:laugh:


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Archer Opteryx
Member (Idle past 1982 days)
Posts: 1811
From: East Asia
Joined: 08-16-2006


Message 24 of 66 (351996)
09-25-2006 3:17 AM
Reply to: Message 19 by Faith
09-24-2006 7:08 PM


Adam and Eve's unwelcome offspring
Faith:

I don't accept carbon dating, never have. It proves nothing. I have said, however, that I don't understand it well enough to discuss it

quote:
How strange when an illusion dies. It's as though you've lost a child.

- Judy Garland



Archer

All species are transitional.


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Jonty
Inactive Junior Member


Message 25 of 66 (352013)
09-25-2006 5:55 AM
Reply to: Message 21 by jar
09-24-2006 8:23 PM


Re: No evidence from you yet, jar. Please provide
First post so try not to be too harsh :)

Ancient human DNA is a fascination subject , there are a couple of other examples

Cheddar Man - found in Gough’s Cave in Cheddar Gorge, UK . It is the oldest human skeleton found in the UK , dated back to 7150 BCE.

In 1997 , Bryan Sykes , Oxford University managed to extract the mitochondrial DNA from Cheddar man's teeth (apparently it is in haplogroup U).

Amazingly there managed this DNA was very similar to the DNA of the current residents of Cheddar , with two exact matches and one match with only one mutation (to a history teacher called Adrian Target) , which is pretty amazing

http://www.standardtimes.com/daily/03-97/03-09-97/a09wn056.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cheddar_Man

Several mummies mitochondrial DNA has been extracted (all around 1500 BC) by Professor Scott Woodward , showing a lot of about how the mummies where interrelated.

http://www.egyptologyonline.com/using_dna.htm

And much nearer in time apparently the mtDNA of the body attributed to Luke the Evangelist in Padua, Italy has been tested

http://www.pnas.org/cgi/reprint/98/23/13460 - pdf warning

Hopefully people have found some of this interesting.


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Archer Opteryx
Member (Idle past 1982 days)
Posts: 1811
From: East Asia
Joined: 08-16-2006


Message 26 of 66 (352014)
09-25-2006 6:17 AM
Reply to: Message 25 by Jonty
09-25-2006 5:55 AM


Re: Ancient DNA
Jonty:

Hopefully people have found some of this interesting.

All of it fascinating. Thanks--and welcome to EvC!


Archer

All species are transitional.


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Jonty
Inactive Junior Member


Message 27 of 66 (352015)
09-25-2006 6:20 AM
Reply to: Message 26 by Archer Opteryx
09-25-2006 6:17 AM


Re: Ancient DNA
Thanks , your too kind :)

I've been lurking for a while , so I thought it would be a good time to get my toes wet.


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Equinox
Member (Idle past 3527 days)
Posts: 329
From: Michigan
Joined: 08-18-2006


Message 28 of 66 (352409)
09-26-2006 1:51 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by Faith
09-24-2006 5:05 PM


Re: written in the Year 5767
Faith wrote:
quote:

Age you cannot know, you can only speculate based on certain physical facts. What are those facts?

………You cannot KNOW this, but only infer it from what are probably rather scanty facts. Please give all the kinds of evidence that were used to determine how long ago he lived.

………This is clearly quite complex interpretation of some simple physical facts.

………This is no doubt based on particular physical facts too. Please provide. It shouldn't be hard to give good evidence in this case.

………..Yes, I read a discussion of this. Analysis of stomach contents. Not absolutely certain nevertheless, but likely.

quote:

His shoes were composite, soles of bear skin, uppers deerhide. They were insulated with grasses.



Now THAT is an actual fact for a change. I knew you had it in you! It could be more precisely stated of course -- "On his feet were found ... " etc. But I'll let you get away with that. A real fact! I'm SO happy.


Um, how is one a fact and one not? Based on physical evidence? Yes – all of them are based on physical evidence. Even the idea that his shoes were from bearskin is based on physical similarities between current bear skins and the shoe leather. Were those really grasses? They look like grasses, but we have to rely on physical evidence.

For the dating we have many pieces of physical evidence, not the least of which is the dendrochronologic confirmation. We discussed that a bit on the thread that spawned this one, and there seems to be no way around that date, unless we completely deny any logical process based on physical evidence. If we do that, then why believe that the civil war occurred, or that your grandfather was born? All we have in those cases are physical evidence. Even dates on paper are physical evidence.

If we are going to accept evidence and logic, then conclusions are arrived at – such as the contents of his last meal or the question of whether or not he wore shoes, and even the date arrived at by multiple pieces of evidence. If we aren’t going to use physical evidence, then we are living in a fantasy world and further discussion is pointless.


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NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8892
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 29 of 66 (352411)
09-26-2006 2:04 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by Equinox
09-26-2006 1:51 PM


B i n g o !
then we are living in a fantasy world and further discussion is pointless.

You got it! Someone is living in a fantasy world.


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kuresu
Member (Idle past 898 days)
Posts: 2544
From: boulder, colorado
Joined: 03-24-2006


Message 30 of 66 (352412)
09-26-2006 2:16 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by NosyNed
09-26-2006 2:04 PM


Re: B i n g o !
yep--me. I just conquered the romans, and the mongols and egyptians are already mine. Of course, I wish my world had a little bit more water--too much land, making wars very long. Good thing Bismark and his massive army is on my side:) (oh, and my world is only 5000 some years)
:laugh:

(but I don't see why we can't discuss my fantasy world:()


Want to help give back to the world community? Did you know that your computer can help? Join the newest TeamEvC Climate Modelling to help improve climate predictions for a better tomorrow.

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