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Author Topic:   What is the appeal of evolution?
Jazzns
Member (Idle past 2020 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 61 of 75 (352074)
09-25-2006 11:07 AM
Reply to: Message 46 by Hyroglyphx
09-24-2006 8:42 PM


Re: I'll Play
To answer Percy's question, one has to first come to realize what they actually 'know' about evolution and what they were taught to know about evolution.

So it is not that any of has investigated this for ourselves and honestly found evolution convincing but rather it is simply the dogma we have digested from some societal indoctrination?

If so, how utterly and incomprehensibly insulting of you.

Showing that millions of people have total belief in Darwin's version of evolution has no backbone, just as for the atheist that millions of people could believe in a Higher Power means nothing.

Percy was not talking just about people. He is questioning why millions of SCIENTISTS always converge upon the same paradigm AS IT IS SHIFTING!

His parody is totally lost on you. It has nothing to do with the layperson on the street but rather the educated masses who drive our scientific and technological cultures. Many of us here on this forum BELONG to that culture. Therefore things like your next comment:

How much investigation does the average student give in ascertaining the veractiy of such claims? Not many.

Is nothing more than intellectualized ad-hom. You know nothing about the expertise or the effort of the individuals who choose to reject your worldview for the one supported by the evidence. Many of these individuals are your peers on this forum.

Who would challenge it?

The people who work deepest in these fields challange these notions every single day that they work. Every time a rock is dated, every time someone examines population dynamics, every time we get new exciting astronomical data, these theories that describe an old earth/universe and evolution are TESTED. If the data does not match up we ask WHY. When we find the answers to WHY and they are not because of some human error then we are FORCED to change our thinking. That is why science changes.

On what merits would they question it in the first place?

It is questioned NECESSARILY! The scientific method REQUIRES that theories create predicitions that can be tested.

Questioned = Testing

The very fact that these theories are tested flies right in the face of your rediculous claims.

In fact, I think it would be a safe assumption to presuppose that it wasn't until creationism reared its face on the scene that the laymen really took up arms in understanding their own beliefs about biology.

No one is talking about the layman. Welcome to the conversation NJ. The uneducated layman often gets it wrong in more than just origins. What Percy is addressing is the scientific community. It is reasonable though to assume also that the scientifically educated layman is NOT indoctrinated as you would like to think. If it makes you feel better that we are all pansies in an "evo" dominated world then by all means do. Just don't expect positions like the ones you have put forward in this thread to given any respect by anyone other than your creo friends.


Of course, biblical creationists are committed to belief in God's written Word, the Bible, which forbids bearing false witness; --AIG (lest they forget)
This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 62 by Percy, posted 09-25-2006 11:28 AM Jazzns has responded

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 18371
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 62 of 75 (352079)
09-25-2006 11:28 AM
Reply to: Message 61 by Jazzns
09-25-2006 11:07 AM


Re: I'll Play
Hi Jazzns,

Ironically, after reading your post it almost feels like we are allies. While naturally your protests that there's no indoctrination strain credulity, you have otherwise hit upon the key points that NJ didn't address. We can preach to our own choirs about the fallacies of evolution without detailed arguments because we know the plain truth of the Word of God contained in the Bible. But if we're to convince people outside our own Christian communities then we have to show how evolutionists are wrong not just in a Christian context, but in any context.

We know the evidence doesn't point to evolution, and creationists everywhere point this out in books and lectures and websites all the time, but the details of these arguments are lost on most people. The larger question, and the key question, it seems to me, is why scientists as a group have fixed exclusively upon evolution as the theory to oppose plain Christian teaching. A subsidiary question is how evolutionists influence other fields of science to "go along" and develop theories consistent with evolution. If we can figure all this out then the fall of the evolutionary house of cards will inevitably follow.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by Jazzns, posted 09-25-2006 11:07 AM Jazzns has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 63 by Jazzns, posted 09-25-2006 12:05 PM Percy has not yet responded

    
Jazzns
Member (Idle past 2020 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 63 of 75 (352088)
09-25-2006 12:05 PM
Reply to: Message 62 by Percy
09-25-2006 11:28 AM


A related question
A subsidiary question is how evolutionists influence other fields of science to "go along" and develop theories consistent with evolution.

Alternativly we could question where the source of the discord comes from biologists studying evolution or from geologists studying the age of the earth. Did geologists empower the evolutionists who took over from there? Did evolutionary theory drive the geologists to interpret the age of the earth to fit into evolutionary theory? If tomorrow someone discovered that it would supposidly take 10 billion years to evolve humans, would geologists suddently discover that the earth is 10 billion years old?

WHo wears the pants in this weird concensus you speak of? The geologists or the biologists?


Of course, biblical creationists are committed to belief in God's written Word, the Bible, which forbids bearing false witness; --AIG (lest they forget)
This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 64 by nator, posted 09-25-2006 1:10 PM Jazzns has not yet responded
 Message 65 by RAZD, posted 09-25-2006 3:07 PM Jazzns has responded

  
nator
Member (Idle past 278 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 64 of 75 (352104)
09-25-2006 1:10 PM
Reply to: Message 63 by Jazzns
09-25-2006 12:05 PM


Re: A related question
quote:
WHo wears the pants in this weird concensus you speak of? The geologists or the biologists?

It's actually the Masons.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 63 by Jazzns, posted 09-25-2006 12:05 PM Jazzns has not yet responded

    
RAZD
Member
Posts: 19816
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 10.0


Message 65 of 75 (352156)
09-25-2006 3:07 PM
Reply to: Message 63 by Jazzns
09-25-2006 12:05 PM


Re: A related question, maybe the answer?
It was the geologists that started it: by dating the world too old for creation, they thought they had found a way to deny god and force it onto everyone as a matter of facts.

So then some reason had to be found for why it was so old, and it was the evolutionists that came up with the answer: it had to be old in order to provide enough time for microevolution to account for everything from the big bang to the origin of life.

This could be key to why it is always evolution that is chosen as the theory to deny god with.


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This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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 Message 67 by Jazzns, posted 09-25-2006 3:50 PM RAZD has responded

  
subbie
Member (Idle past 68 days)
Posts: 3508
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 66 of 75 (352166)
09-25-2006 3:34 PM
Reply to: Message 65 by RAZD
09-25-2006 3:07 PM


Re: A related question, maybe the answer?
No, no, no. It goes much farther back than that.

It was those Satanists who tried to remove the Earth from its rightful place in the center of the universe that started it all.

Blame it on astronomy.


Those who would sacrifice an essential liberty for a temporary security will lose both, and deserve neither. -- Benjamin Franklin
This message is a reply to:
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Jazzns
Member (Idle past 2020 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 67 of 75 (352169)
09-25-2006 3:50 PM
Reply to: Message 65 by RAZD
09-25-2006 3:07 PM


Re: A related question, maybe the answer?
Lets not try to get too far off of what Percy is trying to ask here.

Geologists may have started it although they did not exhibit the sort of concensus that is apparrent today among both geologists and evolutionists. In the early days, the question of the age of the earth was wildly speculated about since of course there is no actual evidence that the earth is older than 6000 years. It wasn't until evolution arrived on the scene that the rediculous 4.5 billion year number was dreamed up and conferred upon.

Beyond the age of the earth question though, geologists seems to operate in lock step with evolution. This adds a layer of complexity fo the problem Percy is looking at because it is a seperate field of inquiry. When a new fossil turns up, it inevitably ends up fitting right into both the geologic and evolutionary fantasy. There does not seem to be any reason for this.

Since we KNOW all fossils are a result of a global flood 4.5 thousand years ago, there is a big problem trying to understand this weird tendency for scientists from totally different fields to agree as to both its supposed "age" and evolutionary lineage.

Whatever this phenomenon, it must affect both geology and biology in the same way. If it is a social phenomenon, we have to identify whatever synchronization process is used within and between the two cultures that allows these types of consensus to be reached. The alternative is some kind of controlling agent for which both of these fields of science are subject too.

Discovering any of these would be the final death blow to the lie that is evolution.


Of course, biblical creationists are committed to belief in God's written Word, the Bible, which forbids bearing false witness; --AIG (lest they forget)
This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by RAZD, posted 09-25-2006 3:07 PM RAZD has responded

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robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 68 of 75 (352228)
09-25-2006 6:01 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Percy
09-22-2006 4:04 PM


I'm looking for an explanation for why evolutionists choose evolution?

Evolution has a romantic appeal that fits very well with the science-fiction crazed culture of our time.

"The dark backward and abysm of time"--it sends a shiver down one's spine to think of all those eons when monsters roamed around. Thus the popularity of such shows as Jurassic Park. It's a fashion.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Percy, posted 09-22-2006 4:04 PM Percy has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 71 by ReverendDG, posted 09-26-2006 12:05 AM robinrohan has responded

  
RAZD
Member
Posts: 19816
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 10.0


Message 69 of 75 (352255)
09-25-2006 8:12 PM
Reply to: Message 67 by Jazzns
09-25-2006 3:50 PM


Re: A related question, maybe the answer?
Geologists may have started it although they did not exhibit the sort of concensus that is apparrent today among both geologists and evolutionists.

Exactly. That's when it really started. It's one thing to kick the earth out of the center of the universe, but quite another to kick god out, and it takes more than just a theory to do that.

This actually demonstrates that the evidence is lacking, as there was no concensus on the age of the earth, but still they needed a reason for an older earth, and that was found in evolution.

Later when they looked in more detail they discovered they needed even more time than anyone had thought to allow for little variations to add up, and that is when the evoutionists went back to the geologists and asked them to give them more time.


Join the effort to unravel {AIDS/HIV} {Protenes} and {Cancer} with Team EvC! (click)

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand

RebelAAmericanOZen[Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


This message is a reply to:
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Omnivorous
Member (Idle past 1076 days)
Posts: 3808
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005


Message 70 of 75 (352269)
09-25-2006 10:45 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Percy
09-22-2006 4:04 PM


When all the brushstrokes feather off to the right and attenuate in a signature way, when all the adjectival triads mount to a gathering beat of lengthening syllabic count, when the symphonies reveal common harmonic structures, we recognize the work of one hand. Likewise, the mysterious concordance you espy has but one explanation.

The Devil.

Think about it.

What ostensibly justifies belief in evolution?

Knowledge.

Who peddled fruit from the Tree of Knowledge?

The Devil.

Where does one pursue this evolutionary knowledge?

In the Garden.

How does one pursue this purported knowledge?

By challenging authority.

Who taught our kind to defy authority?

The Devil.

Why would anyone want to poke around in fish guts and cadavers?

Because the Devil makes them do it.

When you have a million puppets dancing to the same tune, surely there must be one hand orchestrating them all.

And that hand is the left hand of the Devil.

The right hand is busy passing the collection plate.


God gave us the earth. We have dominion over the plants, the animals, the trees. God said, ‘Earth is yours. Take it. Rape it. It’s yours.’
--Ann Coulter, Fox-TV: Hannity & Colmes, 20 Jun 01

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This message is a reply to:
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ReverendDG
Member (Idle past 2219 days)
Posts: 1119
From: Topeka,kansas
Joined: 06-06-2005


Message 71 of 75 (352279)
09-26-2006 12:05 AM
Reply to: Message 68 by robinrohan
09-25-2006 6:01 PM


Evolution has a romantic appeal that fits very well with the science-fiction crazed culture of our time

for someone who claims to know anything about the ToE, its really sad you bring up the x-men monster strawman of evolution
come on robin, this is a bunch of BS and you know it, people love to paint science as magic if they don't understand it. that has nothing to do with the science, that has to do with people thinking that there is a magic pill that can solve all their problems at once.

"The dark backward and abysm of time"--it sends a shiver down one's spine to think of all those eons when monsters roamed around. Thus the popularity of such shows as Jurassic Park. It's a fashion.

is this even relevent? what are you even talking about?
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 Message 68 by robinrohan, posted 09-25-2006 6:01 PM robinrohan has responded

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 Message 73 by robinrohan, posted 09-26-2006 7:16 AM ReverendDG has responded

    
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 16093
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 9.0


Message 72 of 75 (352286)
09-26-2006 1:34 AM
Reply to: Message 70 by Omnivorous
09-25-2006 10:45 PM


Well, we all knew that.

""Its top was a great temple shrine, emblazoned with zodiacal signs representing the hosts of heaven, Satan and his 'principalities and powers, rulers of the darkness of the world' (Ephesians 6:12). These evil spirits there perhaps met with Nimrod and his priests, to plan their long-range strategy against God and his redemptive purposes for the post-diluvian world. This included especially the development of a non-theistic cosmology, one which could explain the origin and meaning of the universe and man without acknowledging the true God of creation. Denial of God's power and sovereignty in creation is of course foundational in the rejection of His authority in every other sphere. . . . If something like this really happened, early in post-diluvian history, then Satan himself is the originator of the concept of evolution...

The entire monstrous complex was revealed to Nimrod at Babel by demonic influences, perhaps by Satan himself . . . Satan himself is the originator of the concept of evolution." (Henry Morris)

It's a shame that Satan can manage to get all the Evil-utionists to agree on their dogma, when the poor old Holy Spirit can't get Christians to agree on theirs.

Satan scores again!

* sacrifices goat *


This message is a reply to:
 Message 70 by Omnivorous, posted 09-25-2006 10:45 PM Omnivorous has not yet responded

  
robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 73 of 75 (352320)
09-26-2006 7:16 AM
Reply to: Message 71 by ReverendDG
09-26-2006 12:05 AM


for someone who claims to know anything about the ToE, its really sad you bring up the x-men monster strawman of evolution

What I know about the Theory of evolution are the bare basics only. The bugaboo for me is genetics: totally incomprehensible.

that has nothing to do with the science, that has to do with people thinking that there is a magic pill that can solve all their problems at once.

I'm talking about the appeal of evolution, not its technicalities. That's the question asked in the OP. Some subjects have an exotic appeal. Now stories from the Bible have no appeal at all to the modern sensibility. One thinks of all those hideous Medieval paintings.

is this even relevent? what are you even talking about?

Very relevant. The human animal is not a logical machine. Many times what someone believes is influenced by what he finds attractive--not in a logical sense, not in a moral sense, but oddly enough in an aesthetic sense.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by ReverendDG, posted 09-26-2006 12:05 AM ReverendDG has responded

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U can call me Cookie
Member (Idle past 3061 days)
Posts: 228
From: jo'burg, RSA
Joined: 11-15-2005


Message 74 of 75 (352331)
09-26-2006 8:23 AM
Reply to: Message 46 by Hyroglyphx
09-24-2006 8:42 PM


Re: I'll Play
You know, i agree with you when you say that laypeople do not know enough about evolution, however, its been my experience that this usually leads to them rejecting it more than accepting it.
When they do get a handle on it, however, they usually accede the point.

But as mentioned, scientists, on the other hand, usually do know the facts supportive of evolution, so your argument falls away, concerning them.

I think it must be said, that any scientist worth their salt, would love to be the one who found clear and verifiable evidence that turned the ToE on its head. Nobel Prize winning stuff for sure!

Edited by U can call me Cookie, : spelling!


"The good Christian should beware the mathematician and all those who make empty prophecies. The danger already exists that the mathematicians have made a covenant with the devil to darken the spirit and to confine man in the bonds of hell." - St. Augustine
This message is a reply to:
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ReverendDG
Member (Idle past 2219 days)
Posts: 1119
From: Topeka,kansas
Joined: 06-06-2005


Message 75 of 75 (352449)
09-26-2006 6:11 PM
Reply to: Message 73 by robinrohan
09-26-2006 7:16 AM


I'm talking about the appeal of evolution, not its technicalities. That's the question asked in the OP. Some subjects have an exotic appeal. Now stories from the Bible have no appeal at all to the modern sensibility. One thinks of all those hideous Medieval paintings.

that is the appeal robin, people think evolution and science can cure all thier problems at once and forever, at least the laymen think so

it is changing though, now we have ID and creationism looking to appeal to the fear in people instead


This message is a reply to:
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