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Author Topic:   la brea tar pits/ humphreys
peter borger
Member (Idle past 7665 days)
Posts: 965
From: australia
Joined: 07-05-2002


Message 31 of 37 (27620)
12-22-2002 12:06 AM
Reply to: Message 30 by John
12-21-2002 10:29 PM


Dear John,
J: Your scenario of chain feeding carnivores would require an enormous population density of carnivores, an unreasonable density. What you propose would quickly wipe out the carnivores locally,
PB: Actually these carnivores are wiped out: extinct.
J: and by the time more colonize the area the trapped animals would sink into the muck and stop the cycle. Until another herbivore wandered into the trap.
PB: Still the ratio is 10 carnivores to 1 herbivore. It puzzled me for a while. From ecology we know that emtied niches are pretty quick replenished by wanderers.. Probably the solution it is somewhere in between.
BW, PB

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by John, posted 12-21-2002 10:29 PM John has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by John, posted 12-22-2002 10:16 AM peter borger has replied

  
John
Inactive Member


Message 32 of 37 (27639)
12-22-2002 10:16 AM
Reply to: Message 31 by peter borger
12-22-2002 12:06 AM


quote:
Originally posted by peter borger:
PB: Actually these carnivores are wiped out: extinct.
LOL.... Yes, they are extinct, but that has nothing whatever to do with the scenario in question. You've missed the point.
quote:
PB: Still the ratio is 10 carnivores to 1 herbivore. It puzzled me for a while. From ecology we know that emtied niches are pretty quick replenished by wanderers.. Probably the solution it is somewhere in between.
But your chain feeding scenario would wipe out local populations of carnivores before the more distant populations colonized the area. Not to mention that it would drive the carnivore/herbivore ratio way up from 10-1 to 100-1 or more.
------------------
No webpage found at provided URL: www.hells-handmaiden.com

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by peter borger, posted 12-22-2002 12:06 AM peter borger has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by peter borger, posted 12-22-2002 9:27 PM John has not replied

  
peter borger
Member (Idle past 7665 days)
Posts: 965
From: australia
Joined: 07-05-2002


Message 33 of 37 (27693)
12-22-2002 9:27 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by John
12-22-2002 10:16 AM


Dear John,
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by peter borger:
PB: Actually these carnivores are wiped out: extinct.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
J: LOL.... Yes, they are extinct, but that has nothing whatever to do with the scenario in question. You've missed the point.
PB: Yeah, LOL isn't it?
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
PB: Still the ratio is 10 carnivores to 1 herbivore. It puzzled me for a while. From ecology we know that emtied niches are pretty quick replenished by wanderers.. Probably the solution it is somewhere in between.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
J: But your chain feeding scenario would wipe out local populations of carnivores before the more distant populations colonized the area. Not to mention that it would drive the carnivore/herbivore ratio way up from 10-1 to 100-1 or more.
PB: I am interested in your calculations.
Best wishes,
Peter

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 Message 32 by John, posted 12-22-2002 10:16 AM John has not replied

  
Quetzal
Member (Idle past 5872 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 34 of 37 (27711)
12-23-2002 2:48 AM
Reply to: Message 29 by peter borger
12-21-2002 10:18 PM


Hi Peter:
quote:
Did you hear anything from Dr Offord, yet?
Nope, and given the amount of time that has lapsed, I doubt whether I will. She may be one of those people who simply don't answer email questions from non-colleagues. No matter - it merely means we will simply disagree on that one minor point until/unless one of us can come up with other data. Have you heard from Dr. Peakall?
quote:
PB: ...and upon the entrapment of the carnivores more packs of carnivores came, who became entrapped, and that attracted more carnivores, who became entrapped, that attracted more canrivores, etcetera. So, it probably took only a couple of centuries to fill the tar pit with thousands of skeletons. It elegantly explains the 10:1 ratio.
I'm not sure of the sequential carnivore part, but I agree that it wouldn't take much time to fill the various tar pits. As I pointed out, the number of individuals found equates to roughly to ten large mammals a decade. I also agree that the carnivore-herbivore ratio is explained by the "attraction" hypothesis.
Were you agreeing with my post? I honestly had to read your response a couple of times to be sure, but it sounded like it. If so, this may be a first!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by peter borger, posted 12-21-2002 10:18 PM peter borger has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by peter borger, posted 12-23-2002 5:36 AM Quetzal has not replied

  
peter borger
Member (Idle past 7665 days)
Posts: 965
From: australia
Joined: 07-05-2002


Message 35 of 37 (27720)
12-23-2002 5:36 AM
Reply to: Message 34 by Quetzal
12-23-2002 2:48 AM


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
PB: ...and upon the entrapment of the carnivores more packs of carnivores came, who became entrapped, and that attracted more carnivores, who became entrapped, that attracted more canrivores, etcetera. So, it probably took only a couple of centuries to fill the tar pit with thousands of skeletons. It elegantly explains the 10:1 ratio.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Q: I'm not sure of the sequential carnivore part, but I agree that it wouldn't take much time to fill the various tar pits. As I pointed out, the number of individuals found equates to roughly to ten large mammals a decade. I also agree that the carnivore-herbivore ratio is explained by the "attraction" hypothesis.
PB: I read somewhere that it would take 30-50 ky to fill up the tar pit. I am glad that we agree that couple of centuries would also suffice.
Q: Were you agreeing with my post? I honestly had to read your response a couple of times to be sure, but it sounded like it. If so, this may be a first!
PB: I only attack evolutionism where I have a sure case.
Best wishes,
Peter

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by Quetzal, posted 12-23-2002 2:48 AM Quetzal has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by funkmasterfreaky, posted 03-25-2003 7:05 PM peter borger has not replied

  
funkmasterfreaky
Inactive Member


Message 36 of 37 (35253)
03-25-2003 7:05 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by peter borger
12-23-2002 5:36 AM


Edited another long URL down to this
I found this interesting, as I was told that the animal remains in the tar pits must have all wandered into the brear tar pits. I'm wondering how water logged wood walks into a tar pit.
------------------
Saved by an incredible Grace.
[This message has been edited by Adminnemooseus, 03-25-2003]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by peter borger, posted 12-23-2002 5:36 AM peter borger has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by edge, posted 03-25-2003 11:54 PM funkmasterfreaky has not replied

  
edge
Member (Idle past 1706 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 37 of 37 (35275)
03-25-2003 11:54 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by funkmasterfreaky
03-25-2003 7:05 PM


quote:
I found this interesting, as I was told that the animal remains in the tar pits must have all wandered into the brear tar pits. I'm wondering how water logged wood walks into a tar pit.
Hmm, maybe it's time to resurrect my old hydrocarbon flood theory...
Anyway, finding logs, twigs, etc., in a tar pit is hardly surprising, regardless of what fantastic story Terry wishes to rationalize. Most tar pits are 'pits' or depressions in the ground, or even in stream beds. As such, they would collect trees and other materials falling into them, including water. Sorry, but this is no mystery at all. Just another intellectual contortion by the creationist mind.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by funkmasterfreaky, posted 03-25-2003 7:05 PM funkmasterfreaky has not replied

  
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