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Author Topic:   Is the world a construct of my imagination?
iano
Member (Idle past 18 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 16 of 33 (353061)
09-29-2006 7:57 AM
Reply to: Message 14 by Guido Arbia
09-29-2006 7:25 AM


I don't think you would. Once you are convinced reality is an illusion, you will be upset.

I imagine so. Lonliness would be one of the very first things to hit.

The thing working against your conviction is that it is your own. There is no outside reference to calibrate it in order to gain any insight as to whether it is accurate or not. In other words: this 'conviction' has no foundation to work off in order to suggest itself as actually being the case. A conviction in a vacuum.

The alternative view is that everyone else/thing exists along with you. And this (competing) view is generated in your own existance. And it too is an argument in a vacuum - there is no absolute way to demonstrate that it is the case.

So, there can be no talk of conviction either way - both views exist in a foundationless vaccum. There can only be talk of which one you chose to hold. And you are free to chose which one to hold. If you find the one you hold at the moment to be upsetting then chose the other one if that is less upsetting.

As soon as you make the choice for the other way you will find that everyone does indeed exist and that they have made the same choice as you have.

I repeat: there is no absolute way to decide which is the true view. Only choice. So chose.

{you may view this argument as a product of yourself in your own stand alone existance. But it doesn't change the arugment you are presenting yourself. You are presenting yourself with a choice. And if making a choice you must jump of the cliff. There can be no retention of the other choice for that would be sitting on the fence - not making a choice. Decide and then jump and let there be no more talk of this anymore. Choosing one option means the death of the other.)

Edited by iano, : re-write to clarify what I meant.

Edited by iano, : No reason given.

Edited by iano, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by Guido Arbia, posted 09-29-2006 7:25 AM Guido Arbia has not yet responded

  
Legend
Member (Idle past 3083 days)
Posts: 1226
From: Wales, UK
Joined: 05-07-2004


Message 17 of 33 (353068)
09-29-2006 8:33 AM
Reply to: Message 14 by Guido Arbia
09-29-2006 7:25 AM


quote:
Once you are convinced reality is an illusion, you will be upset.

even if it was an illusion (which you can't be convinced about) , it's the only reality you have so lie back and go with it.

You're really worried about the possibility of it being an illusion, not worth sweating over!

Possibilities aren't worth worrying about until they become probable.

At this rate, you'll be worrying about the possibility of there being a god, next! ;)


"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."
This message is a reply to:
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RickJB
Member (Idle past 3067 days)
Posts: 917
From: London, UK
Joined: 04-14-2006


Message 18 of 33 (353074)
09-29-2006 8:49 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Guido Arbia
09-27-2006 9:29 PM


If your reality is mere illusion, then said illusion is your reality.

Your reality is your reality. Worrying about it won't make a shred of difference!

Edited by RickJB, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
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riVeRraT
Member
Posts: 5746
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 19 of 33 (353091)
09-29-2006 9:40 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Guido Arbia
09-27-2006 9:29 PM


I cannot grasp the fact that they are conscious beings such as myself.

Have you ever been mugged?

Hire Mike Tyson to punch you in the head, maybe it will all change for you.
(RAZD water balloon theory)


all the evidence seems to point toward the notion that I am all that there is, and that reality is based entirley upon some component of my consciousness.

Both me and my cousin have felt this way, it is understandble. Because when it comes down to it, there is no objectiveness really, because everything we view is through our subjective minds. Might have something to do with God, not sure.

If my mom is not conscious, then I cannot love her, and she cannot love me, because she is a robot, or simply an illusionary construct created by my imagination.

Love conquers all. If you love your mother, and she loves you, then what is the problem? Isn't that enough. Jesus loves you too.

I've tried to use arguments such as, "Well, I can see myself in the mirror. Light is bouncing off of me, hitting the mirror, bouncing back, and going into my eyes. Thus I see myself." but this could all be part of the grand illusion.

Matrix reloaded.

1. If I am the only conscious one I am the universe, thus I am God.
2. Therefore if I am God, there must have been some point at which I was all powerful and all knowing and chose this life style.
3. But if I was all knowing, I would have known that by doing this, I would grieve myself.

answers:
1 If you were God, you wouldn't be having this problem.
2 See #1
3 Exactly.

So your not God, then.

1. However, I would have had more insight and would have possibly known that this would happen, but found a greater reason for this.

You might be more in touch with God than you know it. If you ever decided to be Christian, I believe your gifting would be in the prophetic, and as you view people as God views them, your gifting would expand to other areas.

We are all born with the feeling of something more. Some convince themselves that it is not true. You are desparately seeking the answer. However being by yourself is not a peaceful thing, and is a hell in it's own right. Examine why you even have these thoughts, and what is generating them. Ask God (even if you don't believe) to reveal the answer to you.

You are describing hell. If it was all your universe, why would you create this setting for yourself? It is plainly obvious that you cannot control others from your mind, yet there are people here who genuinly care about you, and your thoughts.


This message is a reply to:
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Guido Arbia
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 548
From: n/a
Joined: 01-19-2004


Message 20 of 33 (353245)
09-29-2006 7:54 PM


I think I solved the riddle.
OK, I really need help you guys. I think I am almost fully intellectually sastified. Help me clean out all the imperfections of my argument and provide a solid proof for what I wish to believe. And that is that the world exists and that other people are conscious. WOOT!

Guido Arbia
Reality exists

Each statement of the same letter is related in that if one is true, the others are as well. This means that two letters can come together and be therefored into another set of statements. However, to be correct, some conclusions have specified numbers as well as letters to be more precise.

A1. Nothing belongs to the consciousness because it is nothing but the self and free will.
A2. The unconscious mind does not belong to the conscious mind.
A3. The personality belongs to the unconscious mind.

B1. The world is sustained outside of the contents of the conscious mind.
B2. Thus the world exists within the unconscious mind.

Based on A and B we can conclude C.

C1. The world does not exist within one’s own mind.
C2. The world is independent from one’s own mind.
C3. The world clearly interacts with one’s self.
C4. The personality is in the world.
C5. What is seen in the contents of the consciousness is caused by what is in the world.

D. We observe people that have the same conscious nature as ourselves.

Based on C and D we can conclude E.

E. What we are seeing is actually there. People have this nature. Thus they are a person.

F. A person consists of a personality and a consciousness; otherwise they are not a person.

Based on E and F we can conclude that.

G. Other people exist, thus there are other consciousnesses beside us.

Now let me clear up a misconception. Things belong to a person, not a consciousness, but since the personality is irrefutably in the world, the argument does not fall apart. At least I hope it is irrefutable.


Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by Ben!, posted 09-30-2006 12:23 PM Guido Arbia has responded
 Message 22 by Legend, posted 09-30-2006 3:42 PM Guido Arbia has responded
 Message 25 by mike the wiz, posted 10-02-2006 9:59 AM Guido Arbia has not yet responded
 Message 26 by mike the wiz, posted 10-02-2006 10:11 AM Guido Arbia has not yet responded

  
Ben!
Member (Idle past 1699 days)
Posts: 1154
From: San Diego, CA
Joined: 10-14-2004


Message 21 of 33 (353272)
09-30-2006 12:23 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by Guido Arbia
09-29-2006 7:54 PM


Re: I think I solved the riddle.
Guido,

This doesn't make much sense to me at all. In fact, it seems that you're adding premises here that you explicitly denied in your OP.

A1. Nothing belongs to the consciousness because it is nothing but the self and free will.
A2. The unconscious mind does not belong to the conscious mind.
A3. The personality belongs to the unconscious mind.

I don't even know what any of these three premises mean.

B1. The world is sustained outside of the contents of the conscious mind.
B2. Thus the world exists within the unconscious mind.

I would challenge you to think more deeply about your views on the conscious and unconscious mind.

Based on A and B we can conclude C.

C1. The world does not exist within one’s own mind.

Huh? Isn't premise B2 that the world exists within your unconscious mind?

D. We observe people that have the same conscious nature as ourselves.

Didn't you say in your OP that we CANNOT observe this? We cannot observe other people's consciousness.

Maybe you meant to equate observable behavior to "conscious nature"?


Instead of trying to answer those questions, I'd strongly encourage you to read "The Embodied Mind" by Valera, Thompson, and Rosch. I think "embodied mind" is the best approach to understanding your questions and doubts and ultimately answering them by denying the premises which underly the question.

Specifically, if you start reading on p.23, where they begin talking about mindfulness/awareness with respect to practicing Buddhism, you may find something useful.

I think the book should be pretty accessible (both physically and mentally :) ) to/for you.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by Guido Arbia, posted 09-29-2006 7:54 PM Guido Arbia has responded

Replies to this message:
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Legend
Member (Idle past 3083 days)
Posts: 1226
From: Wales, UK
Joined: 05-07-2004


Message 22 of 33 (353296)
09-30-2006 3:42 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by Guido Arbia
09-29-2006 7:54 PM


Re: I think I solved the riddle.
are you on drugs ?


"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."
This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by Guido Arbia, posted 09-29-2006 7:54 PM Guido Arbia has responded

Replies to this message:
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Guido Arbia
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 548
From: n/a
Joined: 01-19-2004


Message 23 of 33 (353502)
10-01-2006 5:33 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by Legend
09-30-2006 3:42 PM


Re: I think I solved the riddle.
are you on drugs ?

You must be an evolutionist. They always make unsupported assertians such as the one you're making.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by Legend, posted 09-30-2006 3:42 PM Legend has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
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Guido Arbia
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 548
From: n/a
Joined: 01-19-2004


Message 24 of 33 (353503)
10-01-2006 5:42 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by Ben!
09-30-2006 12:23 PM


Re: I think I solved the riddle.
I don't even know what any of these three premises mean.

What I mean is, in essence, one is pure consciousness. Thus, nothing belongs to them. A person is a construct of consciousness, developed personality, and memory. Something can only belong to a person, not a consciousness.

I would challenge you to think more deeply about your views on the conscious and unconscious mind.

What do you mean?

Huh? Isn't premise B2 that the world exists within your unconscious mind?

Notice that I said nothing belongs to the conscious mind. Therefore, I made no assertian that the unconscious mind was one's unconscious mind. Rather, it is simply a non-conscious construct, seperate from one's consciousness.

Didn't you say in your OP that we CANNOT observe this? We cannot observe other people's consciousness.

We cannot directly observe or imagine other people's consciosuness, but we can observe that they have it.


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4637
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 25 of 33 (353586)
10-02-2006 9:59 AM
Reply to: Message 20 by Guido Arbia
09-29-2006 7:54 PM


Good stuff Guido!
Hi Guido.

You've pretty much got the downpat here. (Atleast in my twurp-opinion)

What I mean is, in essence, one is pure consciousness. Thus, nothing belongs to them. A person is a construct of consciousness, developed personality, and memory. Something can only belong to a person, not a consciousness

I understand what you mean. Maybe we just think similarly, but I seem to get what you mean on a level of reading between your lines. As for long syllogisms, I only understand them after reading them about twenty times. :)

By consciousness you mean our thoughts cannot own anything, in a way, because it is just the construct of having a mind. I thought that was a clever perception of the matter.

The world then MUST exist in the unconscious? I don't think you can infer B2. It seems to be a conclusion rather than a premise.

The world comes via the senses,(the body), and then into the mind which perceives it. I don't think it's so much consciousness and unconsciousness. I observe that you like to compartmentalize things. It's handy for logical specifics, as I do the same, but sometimes things merge. The subconscious and consciousness is very much a part of the brain.

C1. The world does not exist within one’s own mind.
C2. The world is independent from one’s own mind.
C3. The world clearly interacts with one’s self.
C4. The personality is in the world.
C5. What is seen in the contents of the consciousness is caused by what is in the world.

Correct, imho.

We observe people that have the same conscious nature as ourselves.

Yes. People (X) - you (A). The world (W)

Since W interacts with your person (A), then it's reasonable to assume that other recognisable persons (A's), also have a consciousnes, because we observe that; "The personality is in the world." Since we can touch, observe, and observe toher persons, that behave in the same manner as A, it's reasonable to conclude that because they are also persons, the must also have a consciousness. Perhaps it can't be proved, but all of the evidence allows us to have fairly meaningful premisses.

"G. Other people exist, thus there are other consciousnesses beside us." Excellent!


This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by Guido Arbia, posted 09-29-2006 7:54 PM Guido Arbia has not yet responded

  
mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4637
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 26 of 33 (353590)
10-02-2006 10:11 AM
Reply to: Message 20 by Guido Arbia
09-29-2006 7:54 PM


Re: I think I solved the riddle.
The Guido Syllogism

---Guido is in the world.--- (fact)
P1. People are in the world via Guido's observation.
(Since Guido's consciousness inteprets other people from his bodily senses)
P2. The person owns consciousness (like Guido baba)
P3. Peter(whom Guido observes) is regarded under category "people"
Conclusion: Therefore Peter is in the world, and is a person whom is therefore conscious.

I think that's valid. Maybe someone could confirm that for us.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by Guido Arbia, posted 09-29-2006 7:54 PM Guido Arbia has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
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kuresu
Member (Idle past 590 days)
Posts: 2544
From: boulder, colorado
Joined: 03-24-2006


Message 27 of 33 (353621)
10-02-2006 12:17 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by Guido Arbia
10-01-2006 5:33 PM


Re: I think I solved the riddle.
last time I checked, asking a question is not making an assertion. seeing as how an assertion is a statement . . .

you are on drugs
vs.
are you on drugs

which is the assertion?


Want to help give back to the world community? Did you know that your computer can help? Join the newest TeamEvC Climate Modelling to help improve climate predictions for a better tomorrow.
This message is a reply to:
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kuresu
Member (Idle past 590 days)
Posts: 2544
From: boulder, colorado
Joined: 03-24-2006


Message 28 of 33 (353622)
10-02-2006 12:23 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by mike the wiz
10-02-2006 10:11 AM


Re: I think I solved the riddle.
the only premise that would make it fall apart is p2. I haven't been paying attention ot this thread too much, but there needs to be a different premise there. there is an objective reality, and it is logical, though I can't exactly remember what it was (the proof, that is). (something to do with trees in the forest, I think)


Want to help give back to the world community? Did you know that your computer can help? Join the newest TeamEvC Climate Modelling to help improve climate predictions for a better tomorrow.
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Phat
Member
Posts: 12167
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 29 of 33 (353824)
10-03-2006 6:55 AM
Reply to: Message 24 by Guido Arbia
10-01-2006 5:42 PM


The Guido Syllogism
Guido writes:

I think I am almost fully intellectually sastified. Help me clean out all the imperfections of my argument and provide a solid proof for what I wish to believe. And that is that the world exists and that other people are conscious. WOOT!

I am glad that you are happy, Guido. :) You are seeking intellectual and spiritual reassurances, and have gotten quite a warm and overwhelming response from some of us at EvC.

There are many reasons why a young man your age goes through all of this angst. I will, however, not attempt to stereotype you as a typical 15 year old. You have had many challenges in your life that are unique and that have caused the anxiety which you have.

I recall my own turmoils when I was your age and slightly older. My Father died when I was 17. I consciously did not let the event affect me as I felt I was able to cope without him....but his presence was sorely missed! He had gotten cancer and died within a year after. At least I had some time to prepare....

Mike The Wiz writes:

The Guido Syllogism
---Guido is in the world.--- (fact)
P1. People are in the world via Guido's observation.
(Since Guido's consciousness inteprets other people from his bodily senses)
P2. The person owns consciousness (like Guido baba)
P3. Peter(whom Guido observes) is regarded under category "people"
Conclusion: Therefore Peter is in the world, and is a person whom is therefore conscious.
I think that's valid. Maybe someone could confirm that for us.

I think it sounds logical, Mikey! :)

As I read between the lines of logic, I believe that what you (Guido) are asking us is: Am I alone with my feelings, or are there other people in this world who actually exist in that they are personal to me?

We have always been taught that Jesus is personal, and I think it would be fair to include and accept Him in our hearts and minds.

Beyond Jesus, however, we humans can only interact either in person or on forums such as this.

It is never good to be alone.

Keep communicating, Guido. And if you ever DO find yourself on drugs---either by mistake or on purpose----don't hide it from me.

Also say hello to your Mother for me.... give her a hug, in fact! :) She surely exists and you can thank God that she does! (We can prove that she exists by the fact that you exist.)


“There are two kinds of people: those who say to God, "Thy will be done," and those to whom God says, "All right, then, have it your way” --C.S.Lewis

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by Guido Arbia, posted 10-01-2006 5:42 PM Guido Arbia has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
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Phat
Member
Posts: 12167
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 30 of 33 (356879)
10-16-2006 2:06 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by Phat
10-03-2006 6:55 AM


Re: The Guido Syllogism
One more thing, Guido. Communication is itself a good thing. The reason that we are tough on you hanging out at EvC during school hours is because ....well let me explain it.

You are at a crucial emotional spot in your life. Virtual friends can do little for you. In order to find help and emotional support, you need real people that live where you live. People who you can talk to and who can interact with you and Mom and the family.

I understand and remember what it was like to be 15. 10th grade was not easy for me. I had a few friends, but I had many more who did nothing but tease me and ignore me as if I was less of a person than they were.

I was angry. I isolated myself from the world. If I had had internet back then, I may well have found an oasis in a place such as EvC.

Its good to talk to people and share emotions and insights. Its good to get advice from older people. BUT....

It is avoiding the issues in your own life. Virtual people can only give you words...as I am doing now. You could read a book that explained things better than I can. You can look up knowledge and advice and concepts and beliefs in encyclopedias and online sources...as well as a Library. (My sister is a Librarian)

More important, you can find some new hookups in your town and church and neighborhood. Perhaps a teacher or a Pastor...or someone that can really help you understand and navigate through the minefield that is 15...and 10th grade...and a crazy life! :)

In conclusion, we are not ditching you. We are pushing you towards better solutions. If I lived where you do, I would be able to help you more than I can 1000 miles away. My prayer is that you find some mentors and good friends that can help you get it together. You are a good writer, and you should be aceing your school. I think...no wait. I KNOW that you can do it, Guido.

Edited by Phat, : clarification


This message is a reply to:
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