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Author Topic:   Magnetism
2ice_baked_taters
Member (Idle past 5965 days)
Posts: 566
From: Boulder Junction WI.
Joined: 02-16-2006


Message 16 of 28 (352813)
09-28-2006 12:03 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by Argonath
09-21-2006 9:03 AM


These well meaning people have neglected to tell you the simple answer.
We do not know. We know things about the phenomenon we call magnetism but we haven't a clue exactly what it is or how it came to be. For all we know it may have always existed. We keep looking though.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by Argonath, posted 09-21-2006 9:03 AM Argonath has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by cavediver, posted 09-28-2006 12:26 PM 2ice_baked_taters has replied

  
cavediver
Member (Idle past 3757 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 17 of 28 (352819)
09-28-2006 12:26 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by 2ice_baked_taters
09-28-2006 12:03 PM


We know things about the phenomenon we call magnetism but we haven't a clue exactly what it is or how it came to be
Speak for yourself Just because some knowledge does not exist in everyday parlance does not mean that such knowledge does not exist somewhere...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by 2ice_baked_taters, posted 09-28-2006 12:03 PM 2ice_baked_taters has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by 2ice_baked_taters, posted 09-28-2006 3:28 PM cavediver has not replied

  
2ice_baked_taters
Member (Idle past 5965 days)
Posts: 566
From: Boulder Junction WI.
Joined: 02-16-2006


Message 18 of 28 (352879)
09-28-2006 3:28 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by cavediver
09-28-2006 12:26 PM


I have spoken a fact that is true for all of humanity. We do not know. I said nothing about wether or not an answer exists.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by cavediver, posted 09-28-2006 12:26 PM cavediver has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by nwr, posted 09-28-2006 4:29 PM 2ice_baked_taters has replied

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 6445
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.0


Message 19 of 28 (352905)
09-28-2006 4:29 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by 2ice_baked_taters
09-28-2006 3:28 PM


We do know
Okay, I can agree that you don't know. But that's because you are a mysterian. You like to make a mystery out of everything. Thus you are using "know" in your own mystical sense.
For the rest of us, cavediver is right. With the ordinary meaning of "know", as used by scientists, we know magnetism very well.

Compassionate conservatism - bringing you a kinder, gentler torture chamber

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by 2ice_baked_taters, posted 09-28-2006 3:28 PM 2ice_baked_taters has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by 2ice_baked_taters, posted 09-28-2006 7:13 PM nwr has seen this message but not replied

  
2ice_baked_taters
Member (Idle past 5965 days)
Posts: 566
From: Boulder Junction WI.
Joined: 02-16-2006


Message 20 of 28 (352956)
09-28-2006 7:13 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by nwr
09-28-2006 4:29 PM


Re: We do know
Okay, I can agree that you don't know. But that's because you are a mysterian. You like to make a mystery out of everything. Thus you are using "know" in your own mystical sense.
I am no such animal.
For the rest of us, cavediver is right. With the ordinary meaning of "know", as used by scientists, we know magnetism very well.
Take a look at the question posed by Argonath. My assesment of the responses was quite accurate as was my statement about what we know. There is nothing mystical about my statements.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by nwr, posted 09-28-2006 4:29 PM nwr has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by Son Goku, posted 09-29-2006 11:11 AM 2ice_baked_taters has replied

  
Son Goku
Inactive Member


Message 21 of 28 (353111)
09-29-2006 11:11 AM
Reply to: Message 20 by 2ice_baked_taters
09-28-2006 7:13 PM


Re: We do know
What remains unknown about magnetism?
What have you read to give you the impression that human knowledge on the subject is lacking?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by 2ice_baked_taters, posted 09-28-2006 7:13 PM 2ice_baked_taters has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by 2ice_baked_taters, posted 09-29-2006 12:42 PM Son Goku has replied

  
2ice_baked_taters
Member (Idle past 5965 days)
Posts: 566
From: Boulder Junction WI.
Joined: 02-16-2006


Message 22 of 28 (353121)
09-29-2006 12:42 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by Son Goku
09-29-2006 11:11 AM


Re: We do know
What remains unknown about magnetism?
What have you read to give you the impression that human knowledge on the subject is lacking?
Basics of Magnetism by Ron Kurtus - Physics Lessons: School for Champions
What is a charge? As in moving charge
What are lines of flux?
I have searched and found the link to be correct.
We know many things about the phenomenon of magnetism but do not know what it is. I have not found a sufficient explanation of what a charge is. I have not found an explanation of exactly what lines of flux represent.
What is particle spin and what causes spin? I have found no answers here.
My point here is an answer to a question is not another question.
The nature of Argonath's question is fundamental
The answer is: Fundamentally, we do not know.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by Son Goku, posted 09-29-2006 11:11 AM Son Goku has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by Son Goku, posted 09-29-2006 12:58 PM 2ice_baked_taters has replied
 Message 24 by nwr, posted 09-29-2006 1:51 PM 2ice_baked_taters has not replied

  
Son Goku
Inactive Member


Message 23 of 28 (353127)
09-29-2006 12:58 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by 2ice_baked_taters
09-29-2006 12:42 PM


Re: We do know
What is a charge?
The charge of an object is the strength of its coupling to the electromagnetic field.
What are lines of flux?
A visual tool used by Michael Faraday.
We know many things about the phenomenon of magnetism but do not know what it is. I have not found a sufficient explanation of what a charge is. I have not found an explanation of exactly what lines of flux represent.
What is particle spin and what causes spin? I have found no answers here.
Have you read any texts that deal specifically with the subject?
There are detailed accounts of what electromagnetism is and how magnetism arises out of this force.
What level of explanation would satisfy you?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by 2ice_baked_taters, posted 09-29-2006 12:42 PM 2ice_baked_taters has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by 2ice_baked_taters, posted 09-29-2006 2:05 PM Son Goku has replied

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 6445
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.0


Message 24 of 28 (353138)
09-29-2006 1:51 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by 2ice_baked_taters
09-29-2006 12:42 PM


Re: We do know
We know many things about the phenomenon of magnetism but do not know what it is.
We have excellent answers to the question of what magnetism is physically. Pick up any physics book on electricity and magnetism.
What we don't have, is a metaphysical answer to what magnetism is. And you are talking about metaphysical answers. That's your commitment to mysticism, which you claimed (in Message 20 to not have).
Metaphysics is that field of study which attempts to answer such questions as:
  • How many angels can dance on the head of a pin.
    There is no reason for us to care about metaphysical answers for anything.

    Compassionate conservatism - bringing you a kinder, gentler torture chamber

  • This message is a reply to:
     Message 22 by 2ice_baked_taters, posted 09-29-2006 12:42 PM 2ice_baked_taters has not replied

      
    2ice_baked_taters
    Member (Idle past 5965 days)
    Posts: 566
    From: Boulder Junction WI.
    Joined: 02-16-2006


    Message 25 of 28 (353144)
    09-29-2006 2:05 PM
    Reply to: Message 23 by Son Goku
    09-29-2006 12:58 PM


    Re: We do know
    The charge of an object is the strength of its coupling to the electromagnetic field
    This does not answer the question.
    Coupling? what dose this mean?
    Answering questions with questions.
    A visual tool used by Michael Faraday.
    What exactly do they represent?
    Have you read any texts that deal specifically with the subject?
    There are detailed accounts of what electromagnetism is and how magnetism arises out of this force.
    What level of explanation would satisfy you?
    I have pointed out the nature of this topic.
    Aganoth's question has been ignored.
    I apreciate your responses and learning a level of understanding of how magnetism works is quite interesting, however it's fundamental cause and how it came into being is the question.
    We know many things about it but this we do not know.
    If you would answer in the context: "This is what we currently understand" It would be more appropriate however, the condensed answer still is, fundamentally, "we do not know".
    Edited by 2ice_baked_taters, : No reason given.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 23 by Son Goku, posted 09-29-2006 12:58 PM Son Goku has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 26 by Son Goku, posted 09-29-2006 2:18 PM 2ice_baked_taters has not replied
     Message 27 by kuresu, posted 09-29-2006 2:22 PM 2ice_baked_taters has not replied
     Message 28 by cavediver, posted 10-01-2006 6:33 PM 2ice_baked_taters has not replied

      
    Son Goku
    Inactive Member


    Message 26 of 28 (353149)
    09-29-2006 2:18 PM
    Reply to: Message 25 by 2ice_baked_taters
    09-29-2006 2:05 PM


    Re: We do know
    This does not answer the question.
    Coupling? what dose this mean?
    Answering questions with questions.
    I have answered what charged is. Coupling is a general concept.
    Coupling is the amount/measure of how the dynamics of two fields effect each other.
    What exactly do they represent?
    The path of a particle in a Magnetic Field.
    I apreciate your responses and learning a level of understanding of how magnetism works is quite interesting, however it's fundamental cause and how it came into being is the question.
    We know many things about it but this we do not know.
    If you would answer in the context: "This is what we currently understand" It would be more appropriate however, the condensed answer still is, fundamentally, "we do not know".
    It came into being in the early universe when various symmetries were broken.
    "It is the purely spatial terms of 4 dimensional electromagnetic curl" or "It is the result of a relativistic disagreement between an electric field and a stationary observer".
    It's existence can be derived from two simpler assumptions in current theory, so its nature is very well understood.
    Edited by Son Goku, : No reason given.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 25 by 2ice_baked_taters, posted 09-29-2006 2:05 PM 2ice_baked_taters has not replied

      
    kuresu
    Member (Idle past 2627 days)
    Posts: 2544
    From: boulder, colorado
    Joined: 03-24-2006


    Message 27 of 28 (353150)
    09-29-2006 2:22 PM
    Reply to: Message 25 by 2ice_baked_taters
    09-29-2006 2:05 PM


    Re: We do know
    I don't recall argontath ever asking how magentism ever came into being. here's the bulk of his OP:
    In essence, what is magnetism. By this I mean How was the first magnet created. I mean, I know north and south poles, but what force would make something like that happen. Is it something spiritual or what. IDK but it baffles me.
    He wants to know what magnetism is. He wants to know when the first magnet came into being (and we interpreted that as being like a fridge magnet). The last question, is whether it's spiritual or not--it's entirely physical, which, if we didn't show, we hinted at.
    I think you've misread his OP.

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    This message is a reply to:
     Message 25 by 2ice_baked_taters, posted 09-29-2006 2:05 PM 2ice_baked_taters has not replied

      
    cavediver
    Member (Idle past 3757 days)
    Posts: 4129
    From: UK
    Joined: 06-16-2005


    Message 28 of 28 (353513)
    10-01-2006 6:33 PM
    Reply to: Message 25 by 2ice_baked_taters
    09-29-2006 2:05 PM


    Re: We do know
    We know many things about it but this we do not know.
    No, totally wrong. If there are some things we know and some things we do not, then magnetism falls into the category of things we know. If we know nothing, then the point is moot.
    Why do we know about magnetism? Because we can describe everything about it in terms of more simple concepts, that are in themselves not magnetsim. We may or may not fully understand the more simple concepts, but that is not required for us to be able to claim that we understand magnetism. To argue otherwise would be to suggest we do not understand hammers because we have not yet gained a successful theory of qunatum gravity.
    Magnetism is a 3d observer dependent phenomenon arising from the observer-independent nature of 4d electromagnetism which in turn arises from a breaking of the symmetry of an SU(2) gauge field in the early universe (as described by Son Goku above). If you started a thread requesting a tutorial on this subject (it is complex, difficult, and very mathematical) I am sure both Son Goku and I would put in some time to guide you through the subject.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 25 by 2ice_baked_taters, posted 09-29-2006 2:05 PM 2ice_baked_taters has not replied

      
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