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Author
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Topic: Logically speaking: God is knowable
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RickJB
Member (Idle past 5016 days) Posts: 917 From: London, UK Joined: 04-14-2006
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Message 58 of 187 (353436)
10-01-2006 10:59 AM
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Reply to: Message 15 by iano
09-29-2006 4:34 PM
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iano writes: In other words IF God exists AND he gave me the data required to know he exists THEN I know he exist. What is this data? Surely you are able to share it?
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 15 by iano, posted 09-29-2006 4:34 PM | | iano has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 67 by iano, posted 10-01-2006 2:36 PM | | RickJB has replied |
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RickJB
Member (Idle past 5016 days) Posts: 917 From: London, UK Joined: 04-14-2006
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Message 61 of 187 (353439)
10-01-2006 11:12 AM
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Reply to: Message 59 by iano
10-01-2006 11:01 AM
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Iano, Why the continued insistance that you must "know" God? Is your faith so lacking?
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 59 by iano, posted 10-01-2006 11:01 AM | | iano has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 68 by iano, posted 10-01-2006 2:40 PM | | RickJB has replied |
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RickJB
Member (Idle past 5016 days) Posts: 917 From: London, UK Joined: 04-14-2006
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Message 76 of 187 (353483)
10-01-2006 3:36 PM
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Reply to: Message 67 by iano
10-01-2006 2:36 PM
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We've had this argument before over Foxes! 
Iano writes: You could share the data with about what you had for breakfast this day a year ago (for some reason you noted it in your diary) but at the end of the day I would have to believe you on it. You could share data about your "knowledge" of God but at the end of the day I would have to believe YOU on it. But even without any concrete evidence there is one important difference - both of us have experienced what it is to eat breakfast. The action/concept itself is objectively verifiable, therefore this lends some credence to your claim. In other words, we have objective evidence that "breakfasts" exist. We have no such evidence for God. Edited by RickJB, : No reason given. Edited by RickJB, : No reason given.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 67 by iano, posted 10-01-2006 2:36 PM | | iano has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 80 by iano, posted 10-01-2006 3:58 PM | | RickJB has replied |
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RickJB
Member (Idle past 5016 days) Posts: 917 From: London, UK Joined: 04-14-2006
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Message 78 of 187 (353486)
10-01-2006 3:45 PM
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Reply to: Message 68 by iano
10-01-2006 2:40 PM
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As far as I'm concerned 1 and 7 are interchangable if no evidence exists. Evidence is the key.
Iano writes: I'm not insisting that I must know God. I am insisting that I do. Ok, so describe God to me. What does he look like? Give me some evidence so I can verify your claim. Edited by RickJB, : No reason given. Edited by RickJB, : No reason given. Edited by RickJB, : No reason given.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 68 by iano, posted 10-01-2006 2:40 PM | | iano has not replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 104 by nator, posted 10-02-2006 9:49 AM | | RickJB has not replied |
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RickJB
Member (Idle past 5016 days) Posts: 917 From: London, UK Joined: 04-14-2006
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Message 90 of 187 (353516)
10-01-2006 6:39 PM
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Reply to: Message 80 by iano
10-01-2006 3:58 PM
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Iano writes: Empiricist speak. Yes, we do realise that, Iano. No need to keep telling us...
Iano writes: All that verifiable evidence does it permit itself to examination by others. Exactly, and you feel this is a problem because......?
Iano writes: Your lending it superiority is unwarranted. On what grounds?
Iano writes: I have to believe him so you believing me would mean you believe him too. Do you believe me? No.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 80 by iano, posted 10-01-2006 3:58 PM | | iano has not replied |
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RickJB
Member (Idle past 5016 days) Posts: 917 From: London, UK Joined: 04-14-2006
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Message 91 of 187 (353521)
10-01-2006 6:58 PM
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Reply to: Message 84 by iano
10-01-2006 4:53 PM
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Iano writes: I got tired of people saying I can't know God exists. So how did you get this "knowledge"? Rail as you might against empiricism you must nevertheless accept that you are bound by the same five senses as every other human being.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 84 by iano, posted 10-01-2006 4:53 PM | | iano has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 92 by iano, posted 10-01-2006 9:16 PM | | RickJB has replied |
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RickJB
Member (Idle past 5016 days) Posts: 917 From: London, UK Joined: 04-14-2006
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Message 94 of 187 (353549)
10-02-2006 1:40 AM
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Reply to: Message 92 by iano
10-01-2006 9:16 PM
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You didn't answer the question, Iano. How did you get your "knowledge" of God? Also, do you accept you have five senses like every other human being? Edited by RickJB, : No reason given.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 92 by iano, posted 10-01-2006 9:16 PM | | iano has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 96 by iano, posted 10-02-2006 8:55 AM | | RickJB has replied |
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RickJB
Member (Idle past 5016 days) Posts: 917 From: London, UK Joined: 04-14-2006
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Message 98 of 187 (353571)
10-02-2006 9:23 AM
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Reply to: Message 96 by iano
10-02-2006 8:55 AM
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Iano writes: I've fallen behind in responses so can't take the time to digress where you would have me.Weave them into an argument adressing the OP and I'll answer them then if necessary. Sorry Iano, but this strikes me as a little too convenient for you at this point. Edited by RickJB, : No reason given.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 96 by iano, posted 10-02-2006 8:55 AM | | iano has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 101 by iano, posted 10-02-2006 9:43 AM | | RickJB has replied |
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RickJB
Member (Idle past 5016 days) Posts: 917 From: London, UK Joined: 04-14-2006
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Message 107 of 187 (353595)
10-02-2006 10:23 AM
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Reply to: Message 101 by iano
10-02-2006 9:43 AM
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Okay so let's recap. My position is that 1 and 7 are interchangeable. In case 1 we have no data. In case 7 we can never get all the data. Now, case 1 WOULD be logical if there was data. If you do "know" God then you must have some kind of data. What is it? Edited by RickJB, : No reason given.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 101 by iano, posted 10-02-2006 9:43 AM | | iano has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 109 by iano, posted 10-02-2006 11:02 AM | | RickJB has replied |
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RickJB
Member (Idle past 5016 days) Posts: 917 From: London, UK Joined: 04-14-2006
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Message 116 of 187 (353612)
10-02-2006 11:26 AM
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Reply to: Message 109 by iano
10-02-2006 11:02 AM
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Iano writes: The evidence is a thing called faith. Faith is not as so often supposed: some blind assent based on no evidence. No. Faith is general term denoting substance. The substance being the evidence. Whilst not empirical in nature it is describable after a fashion. This is meaningless babble.
Iano writes: Whilst not empirical in nature it is describable after a fashion. Go on then.
Iano writes: But not in the sense that could provide another person who has not this evidence the same certainty that empirical evidence might provide to them. In other words I cannot show you God exists. God shows me that he exists. Wait, so now it's not describable after ANY fashion?
Iano writes: That is the order of things. That's your order of things, not anyone elses.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 109 by iano, posted 10-02-2006 11:02 AM | | iano has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 118 by iano, posted 10-02-2006 11:31 AM | | RickJB has replied |
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RickJB
Member (Idle past 5016 days) Posts: 917 From: London, UK Joined: 04-14-2006
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Message 123 of 187 (353627)
10-02-2006 12:56 PM
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Reply to: Message 118 by iano
10-02-2006 11:31 AM
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Iano writes: Cor 2:14 springs to mind. Not that I blame you. It is the way it is. Yes of course, Iano, I'm simply blind to the "truth" of your faith/evidence. Oh, and let me guess. If I believe then I WILL see the "truth", is that it? Round and round the circle goes...
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 118 by iano, posted 10-02-2006 11:31 AM | | iano has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 125 by iano, posted 10-02-2006 1:03 PM | | RickJB has not replied |
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RickJB
Member (Idle past 5016 days) Posts: 917 From: London, UK Joined: 04-14-2006
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Message 156 of 187 (353795)
10-03-2006 1:54 AM
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Reply to: Message 124 by iano
10-02-2006 12:58 PM
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[dupe post - deleted] Edited by RickJB, : No reason given.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 124 by iano, posted 10-02-2006 12:58 PM | | iano has not replied |
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RickJB
Member (Idle past 5016 days) Posts: 917 From: London, UK Joined: 04-14-2006
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Message 157 of 187 (353796)
10-03-2006 1:56 AM
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Reply to: Message 124 by iano
10-02-2006 12:58 PM
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Iano writes: Does it actually exist at all? You can't know that. Empiricism sails in the same circular boat that I do. Ah, but this is your old trick Iano. Whenever you are challenged for evidence you bring out the Berkeleyan "reality is a illusion" card. This is a dead end. If reality is an illusion then said illusion IS reality. Reality is reality.
Iano writes: Empiricism sails in the same circular boat that I do. I'm really keen to learn about the extra (somehow non-empirical) sense(s) you claim to have. We'll call it Iano's Super Sense (ISS). By your own defintion it does not rely on Empirical means. Now, if you can use ISS to "know" with 100% certainty that God exists, could you not also "know" that God does not exist? It seems that in case 7 the limitations of empiricism apply, whereas in case 1 you use your ISS "knowledge" to move the goalposts in your favour. Edited by RickJB, : No reason given.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 124 by iano, posted 10-02-2006 12:58 PM | | iano has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 160 by iano, posted 10-03-2006 5:46 AM | | RickJB has replied | | | Message 164 by Phat, posted 10-03-2006 7:06 AM | | RickJB has replied |
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RickJB
Member (Idle past 5016 days) Posts: 917 From: London, UK Joined: 04-14-2006
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Message 163 of 187 (353826)
10-03-2006 7:03 AM
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Reply to: Message 160 by iano
10-03-2006 5:46 AM
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Iano writes: The supersense you refer to is not something inherent in a 1. He is of no different makeup that anyone else. If God exists and reveals himself to a person then the person becomes a 1. They had no need of a supersense - they were subject to an action by God. The limitations of the empiricist are his problem. So the difference you propose between 1 and 7 boils down to little more than "goddidit". Thanks for the admission. I think you've well illustrated the limitations of your "logic". Edited by RickJB, : No reason given. Edited by RickJB, : No reason given.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 160 by iano, posted 10-03-2006 5:46 AM | | iano has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 167 by iano, posted 10-03-2006 7:59 AM | | RickJB has replied |
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RickJB
Member (Idle past 5016 days) Posts: 917 From: London, UK Joined: 04-14-2006
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Message 165 of 187 (353828)
10-03-2006 7:10 AM
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Reply to: Message 164 by Phat
10-03-2006 7:06 AM
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Re: Common Union
Phat writes: I would even go a step farther and suggest that the Spirit has gotten your attention Please don't diguise your preaching with banter. I find it offensive. Edited by RickJB, : No reason given.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 164 by Phat, posted 10-03-2006 7:06 AM | | Phat has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 166 by Phat, posted 10-03-2006 7:14 AM | | RickJB has not replied |
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