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Author Topic:   Commonalities Of Accounts Of A Universal Flood?
Faith 
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From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 16 of 92 (353737)
10-02-2006 8:22 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by AnswersInGenitals
10-02-2006 8:07 PM


I'm curious as to why these long lists of flood myths leave out the flood myth of the Neworleanian tribe (2005), or that of the Aceh peoples (2004), or that of the Mississippian culture (1993).
Do such myths exist?
Civilization has almost always developed along major rivers (Tigris/Euphrates, Nile, Indus, Yangze, Mississippi, etc., etc.,), or their deltas. These rivers were constantly flooding and still are flood prone. Can you find one week where the newspapers are not carrying a story about a major flood somewhere in the world? To the ancient people, these floods were universal.
Seems to me that regular seasonal floods would not likely be mythified into one huge worldwide flood disaster, as I say in Message 11, but one huge flood seems to be the pattern of the myths. Of course I haven't read through them all.
To the ancient people, these floods were universal. To them, the universe was the distance you could travel in one day.
That's an easy assumption people have, but I'm not sure it's warranted. I suspect it's a projection of our modern fantasies about primitive man rather than anything supported by evidence.
The difficult thing to explain is any culture that does not have a universal or giant flood story. It is the great diversity in these stories that places the biblical flood as just another local myth (and a borrowed myth at that!)
On the contrary, the existence of so many of them is really good evidence for a universal human memory. Not having one doesn't mean much. Maybe they had one but it was lost in more recent events. Deterioration of memory is to be expected; it's the retention of such a dramatic idea in so many places that is unexpected. There really isn't such great diversity at all, the similarities are striking even through the local distortions. And as I say in #11, where are the universal earthquake disaster stories, fire disasters, on a par with the flood stories?
What is most amusing is the desperate attempts by bible apologists to insist that all these ancient floods occurred at the same time. The myths themselves place the flood (along with many other founding legends) in 'the time of the ancients', or in 'time out of mind', or 'before men walked the earth'. Yes, I can see where that narrows it down to Tuesday, June 6, 2865bce.
Where have they said this? Can you give a quote? One would expect memory distortion in the idea of time too I would think.

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melatonin
Member (Idle past 6209 days)
Posts: 126
From: Cymru
Joined: 02-13-2006


Message 17 of 92 (353738)
10-02-2006 8:23 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by Faith
10-02-2006 7:35 PM


Doesn't really apply to the welsh myth. It is part of a triad of disasters that are proposed to have affected Prydain (Briton; a volcano and massive heatwave being the others), and is also found in Silurian (soith wales) myths. The two involved are actually viewed as a god and goddess themselves. You can't just pick one and discard the others. Welsh myths always came in triads as a memory aid.
The basis of the myth is proposed to be the creation of the Irish Sea due to glacial melting following the last ice-age. There is difficulty comparing the welsh and Irish celtic myths though because, like the welsh celts, some christians decided to destroy the Irish celts manuscripts (St. Patrick apparently destroyed 400 books in one library).
But I like the judeo-centric bias that only others are distorted and embellished by memory & reason issues.

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Omnivorous
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Posts: 3978
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005
Member Rating: 7.3


Message 18 of 92 (353742)
10-02-2006 8:37 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by Faith
10-02-2006 7:35 PM


Faith writes:
The universality of flood stories, were they all merely local events, should be matched by a universality of all kinds of disaster stories, it seems to me. Where are the universal earthquake stories, the universal forest fire stories?
There are many myths about both these things, if one is inclined to look. Here is a long list of myths about quakes.
Faith writes:
If the area is flood-prone, yearly subjected to flooding as the Nile area is, the people wouldn't single out just one event of flooding to make a big deal out of it -- or if there was an unusually big flood they'd still mention it in the context of the yearly pattern -- they lived by it after all.
You mean, like this?
Egyptian scribe writes:
"Yeah, it flooded every year, and one year it covered up the whole world but the next year it didn't--no big deal."
The annual flooding of the Nile, with its deposits of rich silt and renewal of ground water, meant continued life and fertility to the Egyptians. The emergence of land from the flood and the first sprout from it were part of their iconography and ritual: part of the Pharoah's job was to command/entreat the cycle of renewal. A flood that destroyed rather than nourished would have been remarked upon.
The fact that such stories exist in such numbers is very likely an indication of a universal memory. The fact that many of them are distorted and embellished with local gods just reflects the imperfection of memory and reason, plus a dollop of local pride.
Then the fact of even more numerous creation myths with nothing whatsoever in common is very likely an indication that different gods made different lands and peoples. The similarities, where they are found, are regional: those similarities exist because of shared histories and traditions. Other flood stories in the Middle East reflect the commonality of region, not event.
Faith writes:
The Bible account is remarkable for its LACK of embellishment. In fact this is true of the entire Bible, which adds to its credibility in my mind. It's a straightforward account of facts and pertinent details. There's no fat on it, no fairy tale or myth or legend feeling at all. In my humble opinion of course.
I can tell my wife's account of our wedding is not embellished, because I was there, and because I have photographs. What personal experience and objective record are you comparing the Bible to in order to reach your assessment?

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by Faith, posted 10-02-2006 7:35 PM Faith has replied

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 19 of 92 (353744)
10-02-2006 8:44 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by melatonin
10-02-2006 8:23 PM


The basis of the myth is proposed to be the creation of the Irish Sea due to glacial melting following the last ice-age.
According to the myth itself or modern interpreters?
There is difficulty comparing the welsh and Irish celtic myths though because, like the welsh celts, some christians decided to destroy the Irish celts manuscripts (St. Patrick apparently destroyed 400 books in one library).
Do you have some evidence for this, a link, a reference? I tried to google it but don't want to risk checking too many links and so far none turned up this information.

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melatonin
Member (Idle past 6209 days)
Posts: 126
From: Cymru
Joined: 02-13-2006


Message 20 of 92 (353749)
10-02-2006 8:55 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by Faith
10-02-2006 8:44 PM


No not according to myth itself, it is a modern interpretation, given there is no evidence of a world-wide flood, it makes sense to look for other large floods that would make sense of the myth.
I'll try and find the St Patrick information for you. But it is well known that he purged Ireland of paganism and celtic history. That which could not be purged was assimilated. The story of Patrick ridding Ireland of snakes is actually suggested to refer to druids.

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Coragyps
Member (Idle past 734 days)
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 21 of 92 (353753)
10-02-2006 9:02 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by Faith
10-02-2006 8:22 PM


Do such myths exist?
Possibly not yet for those events, but certainly for the Mississippi Flood of 1927. Ever heard "When the Levee Breaks?" And my wife's family has many stories of coffins floating out of the ground and of it being "water all the way from Selma (Arkansas) to the Mississippi!" Give New Orleans fifty years and there'll be myths about that one, too. 150 years and they'll get better....

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 22 of 92 (353754)
10-02-2006 9:03 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by Omnivorous
10-02-2006 8:37 PM


Faith writes:
The universality of flood stories, were they all merely local events, should be matched by a universality of all kinds of disaster stories, it seems to me. Where are the universal earthquake stories, the universal forest fire stories?
There are many myths about both these things, if one is inclined to look. Here is a long list of myths about quakes.
Excellent support for my position, thank you. These are myths devised to explain the periodic recurrence of the phenomenon of earthquakes -- earthquakes, plural. In other words they are not about one huge worldwide earthquake. This demonstrates that primitive people know the difference between a recurring event and a worldwide one-time event. The flood stories, by contrast, do not describe periodic floods, recurrent floods, but a worldwide event that everyone here is trying to rationalize away in terms of their limitations of viewpoint.
Faith writes:
If the area is flood-prone, yearly subjected to flooding as the Nile area is, the people wouldn't single out just one event of flooding to make a big deal out of it -- or if there was an unusually big flood they'd still mention it in the context of the yearly pattern -- they lived by it after all.
You mean, like this?
Egyptian scribe writes:
"Yeah, it flooded every year, and one year it covered up the whole world but the next year it didn't--no big deal."
No, more like myths about the fecundity of the flooded land brought about by various gods, perhaps with a story about their supposed beginning, and a recognition of a particularly great flood that destroyed the area, but still not called worldwide.
The annual flooding of the Nile, with its deposits of rich silt and renewal of ground water, meant continued life and fertility to the Egyptians. The emergence of land from the flood and the first sprout from it were part of their iconography and ritual: part of the Pharoah's job was to command/entreat the cycle of renewal. A flood that destroyed rather than nourished would have been remarked upon.
It certainly would.
The fact that such stories exist in such numbers is very likely an indication of a universal memory. The fact that many of them are distorted and embellished with local gods just reflects the imperfection of memory and reason, plus a dollop of local pride.
Then the fact of even more numerous creation myths with nothing whatsoever in common is very likely an indication that different gods made different lands and peoples. The similarities, where they are found, are regional: those similarities exist because of shared histories and traditions. Other flood stories in the Middle East reflect the commonality of region, not event.
Actually, there is a different explanation for these differences. When Satan seduced Eve who talked Adam into disobedience, Satan became the prince of this planet, and his demons became the various "gods" and "goddesses" of the many tribes of humanity, usually blurred with their memory of the one true God, the idea of Whom became more and more remote as time went on under the helpful ministrations of their friendly local "deity."
Faith writes:
The Bible account is remarkable for its LACK of embellishment. In fact this is true of the entire Bible, which adds to its credibility in my mind. It's a straightforward account of facts and pertinent details. There's no fat on it, no fairy tale or myth or legend feeling at all. In my humble opinion of course.
I can tell my wife's account of our wedding is not embellished, because I was there, and because I have photographs. What personal experience and objective record are you comparing the Bible to in order to reach your assessment?
Well, your link to the myths about the origin of earthquakes is a case in point. Typical myths, imaginative rationalizations.
A flood that destroyed rather than nourished would have been remarked upon.
I would certainly think so. That was basically my point. Periodic floods could not be the explanation for any worldwide flood myth found in such a region. They would know the difference.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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Replies to this message:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 23 of 92 (353755)
10-02-2006 9:08 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by Coragyps
10-02-2006 9:02 PM


Yes, human beings are myth-makers, but I meant are there myths from those areas that purport to be about a worldwide event?

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tudwell
Member (Idle past 5978 days)
Posts: 172
From: KCMO
Joined: 08-20-2006


Message 24 of 92 (353756)
10-02-2006 9:09 PM


Confirmation Bias
When a myth or story of another culture deviates from the Bible, it's godless, sinning trash. But when it agrees, then that OBVIOUSLY means the myth is true.
If the universiality of a myth proves its truth, then couldn't a non-universal myth be deemed untrue?

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kuresu
Member (Idle past 2513 days)
Posts: 2544
From: boulder, colorado
Joined: 03-24-2006


Message 25 of 92 (353757)
10-02-2006 9:13 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by Faith
10-02-2006 9:03 PM


oops.
Faith writes:
Faith writes:
The universality of flood stories, were they all merely local events, should be matched by a universality of all kinds of disaster stories, it seems to me. Where are the universal earthquake stories, the universal forest fire stories?
coragyps? writes:
There are many myths about both these things, if one is inclined to look. Here is a long list of myths about quakes.
faith writes:
Excellent support for my position, thank you. These are myths devised to explain the periodic recurrence of the phenomenon of earthquakes -- earthquakes, plural. In other words they are not about one huge worldwide earthquake. This demonstrates that primitive people know the difference between a recurring event and a worldwide one-time event. The flood stories, by contrast, do not describe periodic floods, recurrent floods, but a worldwide event that everyone here is trying to rationalize away in terms of their limitations of viewpoint.
here's the problem with your analysis. As you originally wrote, if the floods featured in the myths were localized, why aren't there, oh, say, earthquake myths in large numbers. We showed a list of earthquake myths. This doesn't mean that that they (the originals) knew the difference between a recurrent and single event. (they did, but, that's not the point here). This means that the floods featured in the myths are localized, whether the ancients realized it or not.
here's why:
1)global flood talked about by many cultures? If floods actually local, why not earthquake myths all over the world?
2)there are many earthquake myths
c)since there are earthquake myths, then the floods were localized.
I haven't read the earthquake myths, but my suspicion is that they are treated as global events, and we do know that global earthquakes don't happen (technically, they do, but the effect of the shockwaves on the otherside are so insignificant as to not even be felt)(so that means that the destruction with an earthquake is not global)
so that means that there is no global flood, just a misunderstanding on the ancients' part.
Edited by kuresu, : No reason given.

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dwise1
Member
Posts: 5930
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.8


Message 26 of 92 (353759)
10-02-2006 9:18 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by jar
10-02-2006 5:27 PM


A commonality I would expect would be that people's proximity to the sea shore. Or at least that the origin of the story would have been at the sea shore, before it migrated to wherever we finally found it.
Borrowing from my CompuServe essay 16 years ago (reposted on my web site at No webpage found at provided URL: http://members.aol.com/dwise1/cre_ev/geology.html), we find that a world-wide flood did occur. However, it was quite different from "creation science's" Flood in that it took thousands of years, it did not cover the entire surface of the earth, it did not lay down all the strata nor bury all the fossils, it did not cause massive geological events, and it did not subside.
During the last great ice age, the Wisconsinan, the sea level was about 200 feet lower than it is now. This means that modern-day ocean bottom shallower than 200 feet was at that time dry land and a number of land bridges, such as the one across the Bering Strait were open. Judging from my atlas, most of the Persian Gulf should have also been dry land, since it is shallower than 200 feet.
The sea level was lower during the ice ages because of the amount of water that would be trapped in the ice caps rather than being in the oceans. Then about 11,000 to 17,000 years ago, the Wisconsinan Ice Age ended, the ice melted, and the sea level rose, flooding the lowlands. According to a historical atlas I have, the seas reached their current level around 5,500 BCE. Since human populations tend to concentrate along the shorelines and in the lowlands, this catastrophic flooding could not have gone unnoticed. Indeed, it would be very surprising NOT to encounter flood stories world-wide, especially ones describing the need for migration to find a new homeland because of the flood.
Another thing to consider is that oral tradition does not normally reach back as far into the past as we may well imagine; the same mistake was made by the 19th century Romanticists. New ideas, new knowledge, and new interpretations get introduced with each generation of story tellers. I recall an article about the three creation myths of the Mandan Indians, all of them entirely different from each other and each one recorded at different times of the tribe's history: the first when they were first encountered and they were nomadic hunter/gatherers, the second when they were trading heavily with white trappers (flood connection -- a great flood drowned the wolves and from their rotting fur came the white man), and the third after they had been forced onto reservations and had been transformed into an agricultural society. I forget whether they had any flood elements (outside of the rotting wolf hair), but since they had come in contact with Christians who told them about the Flood, it would make sense that they could have assimilated that story into their own -- especially considering that they lived close to the middle of nowhere (ie, the geographical center of the North American continent, which is near Rugby, North Dakota (been there; had our picture taken next to the marker)).
Another example is the remote tribe whose mythology included the star, Sirius. Anthropologists recording that myth were astonished when the myth told of Sirius' small companion; the white dwarf accompanying Sirius is not visible to the naked eye and had only been discovered by the West relatively recently. Did this mean that this tribe had access to ancient scientific knowledge that was vaster than our own? Uh, no, because when the same myth was checked from earlier contacts, before the discovery of the white dwarf, they said nothing about any companion. That had apparently been added after a visitor had told them about the West's discovery.
Refer to "The Dogon Controversy", linked to through Wikipedia's article on Sirius at Sirius - Wikipedia
Edited by dwise1, : Added when this flooding was complete

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 27 of 92 (353760)
10-02-2006 9:19 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by tudwell
10-02-2006 9:09 PM


Re: Confirmation Bias
When a myth or story of another culture deviates from the Bible, it's godless, sinning trash. But when it agrees, then that OBVIOUSLY means the myth is true.
The Bible is universal, it's "catholic," it speaks to the entire world. It consistently explains the human condition throughout the world. Nobody said "godless sinning trash." The fact is that the Fall explains most of the religious myths of humanity in terms of demon-inspired idolatries, and the reason all humanity needs a Savior.
If the universiality of a myth proves its truth, then couldn't a non-universal myth be deemed untrue?
A myth by definition is not truth, though it may or may not contain some truth. The worldwide-flood myths simply contain so much similarity that they support the idea of a universal human memory of such an event.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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Replies to this message:
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kuresu
Member (Idle past 2513 days)
Posts: 2544
From: boulder, colorado
Joined: 03-24-2006


Message 28 of 92 (353761)
10-02-2006 9:23 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by Faith
10-02-2006 9:19 PM


Re: Confirmation Bias
haha. two mistakes on your part
first, tudwell was talking about myths not agreeing with the bible being godless, sinning trash, not that the bible is. also, as to that last bit there--I do not need, I repeat, I do not need a savior. I do not need the fall to explain why I want to have sex, for example.
second, you just called your flood a myth. Which means it didn't really happen--as you say
A myth by definition is not truth, though it may or may not contain some truth.
. You then go on to say the "worldwide flood myth". But surely you've been spending your YEC years attempting to prove the biblical flood, no?

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tudwell
Member (Idle past 5978 days)
Posts: 172
From: KCMO
Joined: 08-20-2006


Message 29 of 92 (353762)
10-02-2006 9:27 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by Faith
10-02-2006 9:19 PM


Re: Confirmation Bias
The fact is that the Fall explains most of the religious myths of humanity in terms of demon-inspired idolatries, and the reason all humanity needs a Savior.
Then how do you know the Bible is the one true source direct from God? Maybe it's just another "demon-inspired" myth.
Or maybe Satan and a whole gang of demons decided to convince everyone on the planet that there was a world wide flood. You know, like celestial Punk'd.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 30 of 92 (353763)
10-02-2006 9:28 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by kuresu
10-02-2006 9:13 PM


You admit you didn't read the earthquake myths. They are NOT presented as global. Certainly no one global earthquake is in any of them. They are presented as recurrent natural phenomena. That was my whole point.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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