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Author Topic:   Omniscience, Omnipotence, the Fall & Logical Contradictions.
mark24
Member (Idle past 5195 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


Message 1 of 354 (354119)
10-04-2006 10:36 AM


Hi all,
I would like to start a spin-off thread from "Does Immunity Disprove the Fall?" thread. Certain posts with Faith were getting off-topic, so a new thread seems the best solution.
It started with this statement as regards the Fall:
Faith writes:
Yes, of course. God is omniscient and omnipotent. He would have planned for all contingencies down to the last moment on earth.
I replied:
If he's all-knowing then he knew man would screw up, he knew the fall would happen. He knew it couldn't be any other way, or the notion that god is omniscient is falsified. The logical corollary of an omniscient god is that he knew he was making men flawed, & the fall is falsified. How can man "fall" further in god's view, when he knew they were made fallen?
But this raises another point, why not start with the "fall" already in effect? Why go through the motions of setting someone up in a situation that they have to fail in (the forbidden fruit)?
I'll start my response with Faith's last message:
He did not make men flawed but perfect, and with free will. This is the consistent error so many of you commit. It is not a flaw to have free will and therefore the nearly inevitable ability to disobey God, but it is only inevitable because we are creatures. So many here will insist that this is a flaw against all argument, so I don't argue it often, but I strongly disagree with that idea.
What consistent error? You haven't shown one.
Free will is a red-herring, an irrelevance. If god is omniscient, then he must have known that the forbidden fruit would be eaten, it simply cannot be any other way & still have god being omniscient. So, I repeat, god knew he was making flawed men who would eat the fruit, he therefore knew that the fall was inevitable. So why bother with a pre-fall period? Why not just start out with carnivores, death etc if the fall of man was an absolute certainty, & it must have been an absolute certainty to god, because he's omniscient.
It is impossible to start with the Fall in place since it is the result of the action of disobedience. The Fall was simply what eventually happens to a creature given free will. We cannot resist disobeying at some point. God's plan still gives us a choice -- to choose His method of salvation or not, so that it is still up to us. In the end only those who really want God will have Him, and God will have people who truly love Him and worship Him.
It's impossible to start with the fall in place? So he's not omnipotent, now, either?
God knew with absolute certainty that the forbidden fruit was going to be eaten, he knew with absolute certainty that this would result in the fall, he knew this before he created anything, so why bother with the pre-fall period? Not to labour the point, but free-will is an irrelevance. You can have free-will, or the illusion of it, but the outcome of any decision you make must be known in advance to an omniscient being. It cannot be any other way. It is not therefore impossible (logically speaking) for that being to stop things happening before they do.
Mark

There are 10 kinds of people in this world; those that understand binary, & those that don't

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by Phat, posted 10-04-2006 11:09 AM mark24 has not replied
 Message 13 by BobAliceEve, posted 10-05-2006 5:55 AM mark24 has replied
 Message 42 by riVeRraT, posted 10-06-2006 7:13 AM mark24 has not replied
 Message 53 by xXGEARXx, posted 10-07-2006 12:49 AM mark24 has not replied
 Message 88 by Hyroglyphx, posted 10-24-2006 9:16 PM mark24 has replied
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mark24
Member (Idle past 5195 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


Message 8 of 354 (354215)
10-04-2006 3:20 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by iano
10-04-2006 1:17 PM


Iano,
It is unlikely that Dawkins factored this well established notion into his argument. Otherwise he wouldn't have one
How does this make it easier for you? The odds of getting something as complex as god from nothing are = to something as complex as god existing forever.
Mark

There are 10 kinds of people in this world; those that understand binary, & those that don't

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by iano, posted 10-04-2006 1:17 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by iano, posted 10-05-2006 9:35 AM mark24 has replied
 Message 68 by Thefallout, posted 10-08-2006 7:41 PM mark24 has replied

  
mark24
Member (Idle past 5195 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


Message 14 of 354 (354355)
10-05-2006 8:58 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by BobAliceEve
10-05-2006 5:55 AM


Re: We had to know about the fall (and creation)
BobAliceEve,
You haven't addressed the question. Why bother with the pre-Fall era if the fall was inevitable. A logical corollary of this is that since god knew in advance that Eve would eat the fruit, she had no free-will in any case.
Mark

There are 10 kinds of people in this world; those that understand binary, & those that don't

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by BobAliceEve, posted 10-05-2006 5:55 AM BobAliceEve has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by PaulK, posted 10-05-2006 9:09 AM mark24 has replied
 Message 40 by BobAliceEve, posted 10-06-2006 6:58 AM mark24 has replied

  
mark24
Member (Idle past 5195 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


Message 19 of 354 (354372)
10-05-2006 9:42 AM
Reply to: Message 15 by PaulK
10-05-2006 9:09 AM


Re: We had to know about the fall (and creation)
PaulK,
Yes, I know that, it's ultimately the thrust of my argument.
Mark

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by PaulK, posted 10-05-2006 9:09 AM PaulK has not replied

  
mark24
Member (Idle past 5195 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


Message 26 of 354 (354394)
10-05-2006 11:03 AM
Reply to: Message 17 by iano
10-05-2006 9:35 AM


Iano,
A timeless, ever existing God steps outside the zone of logical analysis for me.
Why didn't you say so! If you had just said god is illogical to begin with... So why did you start a thread stating god was logically knowable?
For myself, God being timeless certainly allows for a pre-fall situation + genuine free-will (meaning the choice could have gone either way).
There can be no free-will because the outcome is already determined. God is omniscient, right? He knows what's going to happen, therefore there is only the illusion of free-will for the individual making the decision. If god has seen an outcome in advance, it is predestined, if it is predestined, it isn't free-will.
God knowing (by way of being in a position of timeless observer) the choice wouldn't mean the choice was a foregone conclusion.
Of course it would. You cannot actually make any decisions because your life is mapped out, god has seen it, & it must therefore be so. You can't change it. It doesn't matter how hard you try, it's already been seen by god. Your life is a recording that is being played. You have no more free-will than a character in an old film you've seen before, they will always do the same thing, even though they think they are making decisions, they aren't. You have seen it & it is so.
If the choice had been otherwise then that is what he would foreknow.
The choice can't be otherwise. God sees the outcome of a decision of yours once, & it is so. And he must see it cos he's omniscient. God isn't wrong. You can't make your decision otherwise. If you can then god is wrong & he can't be omniscient.
Mark
Edited by mark24, : No reason given.

There are 10 kinds of people in this world; those that understand binary, & those that don't

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by iano, posted 10-05-2006 9:35 AM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by iano, posted 10-05-2006 12:53 PM mark24 has replied
 Message 33 by Phat, posted 10-05-2006 2:18 PM mark24 has not replied
 Message 59 by Christian7, posted 10-08-2006 8:12 AM mark24 has not replied

  
mark24
Member (Idle past 5195 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


Message 37 of 354 (354707)
10-06-2006 5:30 AM
Reply to: Message 28 by iano
10-05-2006 12:53 PM


Iano,
This novel however, has been written by the characters in it. They have made all their choices and it is the interaction between all those choices (Gods input notwithstanding) which have determined the course of the novel. A completed novel it is though, laid on the bookshelf of eternity - even if the characters do not know that yet.
No, no, no, no, NO!
The book was not written by the characters in it, the outcome of every "decision" you made/will make was known before the earth was created. God created a story that would unfold. If you have a "decision" to make, "a" or "b", for example, & you choose "b", you cannot ever possibly have chosen "a" because god knew in advance what you would do. Before you were born you were predestined to choose "b". By definition you are not presented with a choice at all.
How can only being able to do one thing be considered a choice?
I understand what you are saying, that you get to make a real decision, & god gets to know the result before the universe was created. But if that is the case then you still aren't making a decision when you come to make it, because it was predestined before you made it.
From gods point of view all of the history of the universe unfolds exactly as he knew it would, before he created it. He knew the fall would happen, he knew he was going to destroy 99.99%** of all life on earth with a flood. What a bastard. He created a world in which he knew he was going to execute everything. What kind of sick puppy is your god, Iano?
Mark

There are 10 kinds of people in this world; those that understand binary, & those that don't

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by iano, posted 10-05-2006 12:53 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 45 by iano, posted 10-06-2006 7:43 AM mark24 has replied

  
mark24
Member (Idle past 5195 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


Message 41 of 354 (354717)
10-06-2006 7:12 AM
Reply to: Message 40 by BobAliceEve
10-06-2006 6:58 AM


Re: We had to know about the fall (and creation)
BobAliceEve,
God "bothered" with the creation (your pre-fall era I think) so that his Fatherhood and Creator role and Adam's and Eve's innocence and disobedience would be a part of human history, our history.
It's not a part of our history, it's a myth. It is no more history than any other myth. So that argument fails at the first hurdle.
If you are going to accept this myth then you have to accept other myths as history, too, many of which are mutually exclusive.
Mark

There are 10 kinds of people in this world; those that understand binary, & those that don't

This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by BobAliceEve, posted 10-06-2006 6:58 AM BobAliceEve has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 62 by BobAliceEve, posted 10-08-2006 8:47 AM mark24 has replied

  
mark24
Member (Idle past 5195 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


Message 67 of 354 (355278)
10-08-2006 7:38 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by iano
10-06-2006 7:43 AM


Iano,
If so, then God is looking from before and also from after.
This in no way explains how god knows something in advance & how that doesn't make it predestined.
It is inescapable, god knows things before they happen, therefore they will happen, & there can be no choice. You can wriggle on about god being outside time all day long, but he still knows things before they happen.
In other words, the world has already ended from Gods perspective.
Rubbish, he intervened as it went along, ergo god is within time, not outside it, taking a retrospective look at how it panned out.
It all hinges on the nature of eternity. No time in it? Then it can be as I suggest it is.
Something without time is exactly the opposite of eternity.
Mark

There are 10 kinds of people in this world; those that understand binary, & those that don't

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by iano, posted 10-06-2006 7:43 AM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 72 by iano, posted 10-09-2006 6:54 AM mark24 has replied

  
mark24
Member (Idle past 5195 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


Message 69 of 354 (355287)
10-08-2006 8:15 PM
Reply to: Message 62 by BobAliceEve
10-08-2006 8:47 AM


Re: Does knowledge decrease or increase free will
BobAliceEve,
If you had an authorative source for saying that the fall is not history I would be willing to listen. I think you statement is just a way of cutting off the conversation when you see that there is a valid point made.
I don't need an authoratitive account to show that the fall is not history. It exists only in religious texts & is corroborated exactly nowhere. There is no reason to accept the bibles account above any other creation myth. Religion does not equal history.
Were we to allow religious text & tradition as evidence, you would be swamped with every other religion that ever existed presenting "evidence", that by your own standards you must accept, would contradict the bible in many, many cases.
You really don't want to go there.
But, technically, you are correct for those who choose not to go back to Father. It would make no difference if they were innocent in the beginning or not. That does not make the choosing not a choice. And, technically, you are correct about those who choose not to go back not having will. They give it up though, again by choice.
So you keep saying, but if the choice was known in advance, it wasn't a choice. I am going to type one of two letters, a or b, god knows in advance which one. It doesn't matter how much I give the illusion of deliberation I am going to choose one & only one, & I can't change it. In my head it may appear to me that I'm actually choosing. But it's already written which letter I'm going to choose before I even thought of the scenario.
And the letter iiiiiiiis...... A !
No choice involved, god has seen it, it must be, I'm just following a script. The die was rolled before I was born.
God can and does change his mind - if he could not then his power is limited just as the power of those who do not want to live with him is limited. You can and do change you mind.
Another silly contradiction. If god was omniscient, why would he need to change his mind? Especially as he knew he was going to change his mind, in which case he can't be changing his mind, he always knew what he was going to do.
Looks like you have a choice to make, god is either omnipotent & can change his mind but can't be omniscient because he got it wrong in the first instance, or he is omniscient & can't change his mind & is therefore not omnipotent. You can't have it both ways.
The reality we live in clearly demonstrates that the more one knows the more options one has.
Illusions, what you are going to do is written in chaper 48, paragraph 2. The choice you make was predestined, it cannot be anything else. It cannot be changed. It cannot therefore be a choice made with a free will.
Mark
Edited by mark24, : Added clarification

There are 10 kinds of people in this world; those that understand binary, & those that don't

This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by BobAliceEve, posted 10-08-2006 8:47 AM BobAliceEve has not replied

  
mark24
Member (Idle past 5195 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


Message 70 of 354 (355290)
10-08-2006 8:21 PM
Reply to: Message 68 by Thefallout
10-08-2006 7:41 PM


Re: Existance
Thefallout,
so He would never have been sibject to any notion of time as we know it.
If that were true, why did he take 6 days to make creation? Given that this is the case, there was a before humans, in which he still knew everything you were going to do. So the predestination problem is very, very much a contradiction.
Mark
Edited by mark24, : No reason given.

There are 10 kinds of people in this world; those that understand binary, & those that don't

This message is a reply to:
 Message 68 by Thefallout, posted 10-08-2006 7:41 PM Thefallout has not replied

  
mark24
Member (Idle past 5195 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


Message 73 of 354 (355537)
10-10-2006 8:01 AM
Reply to: Message 72 by iano
10-09-2006 6:54 AM


Re: Timelessness now, ladies and gents!
Iano,
You dismiss the notion of God being outside time without indicating how you do so.
I dismiss the notion because it is an evidence-free ad hoc debating device. Since you are the claimant, the burden of proof rests on your shoulders to show he 1/ exists at all, & 2/ exists outside time. Otherwise all you are saying is something I can't show exists somewhere I don't know.
Not very compelling.
Mark

There are 10 kinds of people in this world; those that understand binary, & those that don't

This message is a reply to:
 Message 72 by iano, posted 10-09-2006 6:54 AM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 75 by iano, posted 10-10-2006 11:16 AM mark24 has not replied

  
mark24
Member (Idle past 5195 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


Message 89 of 354 (358694)
10-25-2006 3:33 AM
Reply to: Message 88 by Hyroglyphx
10-24-2006 9:16 PM


Re: God: Just or Unjust?
nemesis_juggernaut,
Does the foreknowledge of the crime make the FBI liable for your actions?
But god knows you are going to do it, or not, before you have done it, or haven't.
Bad analogy, the FBI didn't create you. If the FBI created you knowing you were going to perform an act, then yes, they would be responsible. In exactly the same way that you would be responsible if you made a bike so poorly that you knew a wheel would fall off.
Mark

There are 10 kinds of people in this world; those that understand binary, & those that don't

This message is a reply to:
 Message 88 by Hyroglyphx, posted 10-24-2006 9:16 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 90 by Hyroglyphx, posted 10-25-2006 11:16 AM mark24 has replied

  
mark24
Member (Idle past 5195 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


Message 91 of 354 (358763)
10-25-2006 11:23 AM
Reply to: Message 90 by Hyroglyphx
10-25-2006 11:16 AM


Re: God: Just or Unjust?
nj,
God knows your outcome before you were made.
Then you have no free will, just the illusion of it. You cannot possibly make a choice if you are predestined to do something.
Mark

There are 10 kinds of people in this world; those that understand binary, & those that don't

This message is a reply to:
 Message 90 by Hyroglyphx, posted 10-25-2006 11:16 AM Hyroglyphx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 92 by Faith, posted 10-25-2006 11:43 AM mark24 has replied
 Message 94 by Hyroglyphx, posted 10-25-2006 4:01 PM mark24 has replied

  
mark24
Member (Idle past 5195 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


Message 93 of 354 (358782)
10-25-2006 1:07 PM
Reply to: Message 92 by Faith
10-25-2006 11:43 AM


Re: God: Just or Unjust?
Faith,
God's knowing what you are going to do with your free will doesn't interfere with your doing it freely.
Yes it does.
If you have a choice, a or b, & god knows that you are going to "choose" b, then you have no choice but to choose b. You cannot choose "a", you are not exercising free will even though you might think you are.
It's like watching a movie, does he pull the trigger or doesn't he? He does what is written in the script, & can do no other.
Mark

There are 10 kinds of people in this world; those that understand binary, & those that don't

This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by Faith, posted 10-25-2006 11:43 AM Faith has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 100 by Christian7, posted 11-02-2006 7:03 PM mark24 has replied

  
mark24
Member (Idle past 5195 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


Message 95 of 354 (358808)
10-25-2006 4:24 PM
Reply to: Message 94 by Hyroglyphx
10-25-2006 4:01 PM


Re: God: Just or Unjust?
nj,
You aren't predestined to it. You can choose whatever you want.
No, you can't do whatever you want, you can do one thing only. It has been foreseen, ergo it is predestined.
Mark
Edited by mark24, : No reason given.

There are 10 kinds of people in this world; those that understand binary, & those that don't

This message is a reply to:
 Message 94 by Hyroglyphx, posted 10-25-2006 4:01 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 96 by xXGEARXx, posted 10-26-2006 6:54 PM mark24 has replied

  
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