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Author Topic:   Learning exercise 1: who first stipulated that the earth was round?
RickJB
Member (Idle past 4990 days)
Posts: 917
From: London, UK
Joined: 04-14-2006


Message 16 of 29 (355523)
10-10-2006 1:44 AM
Reply to: Message 15 by Taz
10-10-2006 12:51 AM


It was Eratosthenes who demonstrated the the Earth was spherical, I believe. The idea itself would most likely have been bouncing around for a while.
He determined the Earth's circumference by measuring the difference in the shadow angle of the midday sun in northern and southern Egypt (Alexandria and Syrene) and applying a bit of basic trig. His experimental equipment probably consisted of nothing more than two wooden sticks!
Apparently he was very close and came out with a figure that corresponds to roughly 39,000km.
A clever sod, indeed.
Edited by RickJB, : No reason given.
Edited by RickJB, : No reason given.

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 Message 15 by Taz, posted 10-10-2006 12:51 AM Taz has replied

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Taz
Member (Idle past 3291 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 17 of 29 (355539)
10-10-2006 8:06 AM
Reply to: Message 16 by RickJB
10-10-2006 1:44 AM


RickJB writes:
Apparently he was very close and came out with a figure that corresponds to roughly 39,000km.
Actually, we don't know how close he got since we have no idea how to convert the unit of measurement he used into something that we use today.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by RickJB, posted 10-10-2006 1:44 AM RickJB has replied

Replies to this message:
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RickJB
Member (Idle past 4990 days)
Posts: 917
From: London, UK
Joined: 04-14-2006


Message 18 of 29 (355555)
10-10-2006 9:13 AM
Reply to: Message 17 by Taz
10-10-2006 8:06 AM


gasby writes:
we have no idea how to to convert the unit of measurement he used into something that we use today
We certainly do have some idea. The attic stade is generally thought to have been 185m, though there were other stade variations. There is room for error for sure, but reasonable estimates can be made.

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iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 19 of 29 (355557)
10-10-2006 9:23 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Trump won
10-09-2006 8:46 PM


Is. 40:22 It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in...
Skeptics will assume from these verses a concept of a flat, circular, pancake-like earth. In each case, the Hebrew word here is exactly the same, as Strong's tells us:
2329. chuwg, khoog; from H2328; a circle:--circle, circuit, compass.
And here is where we alert the reader to another key word-concept that is missing in Hebrew: There was no varying word for a "sphere" - a three-dimensional circle. It is not that the Hebrews or anyone else lacked the concept of sphericity (for obviously, they could conceive of it plainly when, for example, they ate pomegranates for breakfast!), but that they simply did not create a second word for it.
Some may cite in reply here the KJV version of Is. 22:18, "He will surely violently turn and toss thee like a ball into a large country: there shalt thou die, and there the chariots of thy glory shall be the shame of thy lord's house." The Hebrew word here, however, is:
1754. duwr, dure; from H1752; a circle, ball or pile:--ball, turn, round about.
The world is circlar. An infinite amount of them s'all

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CK
Member (Idle past 4127 days)
Posts: 3221
Joined: 07-04-2004


Message 20 of 29 (355562)
10-10-2006 9:33 AM
Reply to: Message 19 by iano
10-10-2006 9:23 AM


quote:
And here is where we alert the reader to another key word-concept that is missing in Hebrew: There was no varying word for a "sphere" - a three-dimensional circle.
I don't think that's actually true - and I thought it was "chug ha-arets" rather than Chug?
Where's A when we need him.....

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Trump won 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1239 days)
Posts: 1928
Joined: 01-12-2004


Message 21 of 29 (355579)
10-10-2006 10:23 AM
Reply to: Message 19 by iano
10-10-2006 9:23 AM


I knew this was going to be brought up, almost wrote "don't quote Isaiah" but I can't say if it's true or not.
I'd have to study the original scripture myself which means knowing a few languages then discuss with biblical scholars as in those that read and interpret the languages.
I'll look into your source if your post errupts into a popular point of discussion

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Trump won 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1239 days)
Posts: 1928
Joined: 01-12-2004


Message 22 of 29 (355586)
10-10-2006 10:42 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by Taz
10-10-2006 12:44 AM


Re: confusing "heliocentric model with "earth is round".........
Can you imagine 1266 AD writing with ink and quill or what not and not having the luxury of making a mistake?
The 1st proof of God is seen as flawed: the infinite causal stair (effect and cause). I blelieve the church acknowledges it as being the one flaw of this genius's work.
This is known from my philosophy class and from it being common knowledge I assume.
The other 4 proofs are relatively secure I believe, I just received a summary of them, more of a lesson then a discussion from my uncle. Guy is a genius. Mentioned Kant and he went into existentialism and from a long list of names in the movement came upon "the greatest existential author, Thomas Aquinas". He's pure reason though part of his lesson is for me to read Aquinas's 5 proofs then connect it to a 1000 page philosophy book of summaries I presume then to read Hawking and how his greatest achievement was discovering "time has a beginning".
In regards to your last question no person exists. I simply thought the text said something it didn't. Aquinas simply referred to the earth being round as a well known fact derived from astronomers by mathematics and physicists by the matter itself and he was saying that you can have more than one way to prove something.
And the church was never against a round earth obviously just a heliocentric model.

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sidelined
Member (Idle past 5907 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 23 of 29 (355590)
10-10-2006 11:06 AM
Reply to: Message 19 by iano
10-10-2006 9:23 AM


iano
Some may cite in reply here the KJV version of Is. 22:18, "He will surely violently turn and toss thee like a ball into a large country: there shalt thou die, and there the chariots of thy glory shall be the shame of thy lord's house." The Hebrew word here, however, is:
1754. duwr, dure; from H1752; a circle, ball or pile:--ball, turn, round about.
How does that make a bit of difference. In the same way that the proper interpretation is used for circle in IS 40:22 the proper interpretation for Is 22:18 is ball. And in the context of the passage it is clear that the concept of a sphere is known.
That it is used in Is 22:18 but not in Is 40:22 makes it clear that the concept used is different.
This is perfectly in keeping with observations they could make since from the vantage of a hilltop one may look out to the horizon about you and see the circular nature thereof. One cannot,however,see the true nature of the planet as spherical. Though one may assume they were vaguely aware of the possibilty it is not evident from the passages.
That said Isaiah is not a wealth of accurate understanding of the nature of the planet.

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Taz
Member (Idle past 3291 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 24 of 29 (355768)
10-10-2006 8:58 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by Trump won
10-10-2006 10:42 AM


Re: confusing "heliocentric model with "earth is round".........
{Removed...}
Edited by gasby, : No reason given.

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PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 25 of 29 (355799)
10-11-2006 2:15 AM
Reply to: Message 22 by Trump won
10-10-2006 10:42 AM


Re: confusing "heliocentric model with "earth is round".........
It's not really on topic but it's widely known that there is no successful proof of God. That's why people keep looking for new arguments. If Aquinas had settled it, then later writers wouldn't have bothered. All of the "proofs" are flawed.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by Trump won, posted 10-10-2006 10:42 AM Trump won has replied

Replies to this message:
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ramoss
Member (Idle past 611 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 26 of 29 (355916)
10-11-2006 2:05 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by iano
10-10-2006 9:23 AM


The term used in the bible just so happens to be two dimentional, not spherical. This matches the bablyonian and egyptian cosmologies of the time too.

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Trump won 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1239 days)
Posts: 1928
Joined: 01-12-2004


Message 27 of 29 (355933)
10-11-2006 3:10 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by PaulK
10-11-2006 2:15 AM


Re: confusing "heliocentric model with "earth is round".........
I'm in the process of deciding that for myself by reading them...
No one is looking for new arguments. That's not at all how this works.
You have to understand I'm talking about genius that only pops up every hundred years or so.
Perhaps from how you said "looking for" you are referring to televangelists which have no connection whatsoever to intellectual discussion.
Your terms of "success" and I'm presuming failure do not apply and are inherently subjective, unscholarly and irrelevant.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by PaulK, posted 10-11-2006 2:15 AM PaulK has replied

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PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 28 of 29 (355956)
10-11-2006 5:34 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by Trump won
10-11-2006 3:10 PM


Re: confusing "heliocentric model with "earth is round".........
Nobody ? Televangelists ? No, I'm talking about people with far more credibility than that - Richard Swinburne and Alvin Plantinga spring to mind as relatively modern examples. But we could name several others who lived after Aquinas - such as Descartes, for instance
quote:
Your terms of "success" and I'm presuming failure do not apply and are inherently subjective, unscholarly and irrelevant.
And how would you know that ? Please don't insult me just because you don't like what I'm saying.
Edited by PaulK, : No reason given.

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Trump won 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1239 days)
Posts: 1928
Joined: 01-12-2004


Message 29 of 29 (355978)
10-11-2006 6:44 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by PaulK
10-11-2006 5:34 PM


Re: confusing "heliocentric model with "earth is round".........
I apologize.

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