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Author Topic:   Is the world a construct of my imagination?
Christian7
Member (Idle past 248 days)
Posts: 628
From: n/a
Joined: 01-19-2004


Message 1 of 33 (352714)
09-27-2006 9:29 PM


I think this would be good in the coffee house forum.
I am currently struggling with the objective concept of reality. I wish to believe that I am IN this world, and that other people like me exist, but when I come face to face with my own consciousness, all the evidence seems to point toward the notion that I am all that there is, and that reality is based entirley upon some component of my consciousness. It began when I realized that I could not imagine anyone else's consciousness but my own. Now, I do not mean that I can't imagine what they are feeling. I can do that, but in order to do that, I would have to use my own feeler to feel it. I cannot grasp the fact that they are conscious beings such as myself. It seems that there can only be one consciousness, and the notion of, "Why is my consciousness the one is the only consciousness" makes little sense, because consciousness is in itself, in my mind, essentially me. So no matter what, if a thing is conscious, that thing is me.
I really want this topic promoted you guys, because I need help with this situation. If someone could provide arguments to the contrary, reasonable arguments, that I could not refute with my "illusion" concept, then I would be able to have comfort and rest. I want to love people, but how can I love what is not conscious? If my mom is not conscious, then I cannot love her, and she cannot love me, because she is a robot, or simply an illusionary construct created by my imagination.
Perhaps this topic should not be in coffee house. As a matter of fact, this is very relevant to the debate, because it talks about objective reality versus subjective reality. It also talks about the possibility of a theoretical conscious one.
I know I sound crazy you guys, and I am probably psycotic, but this feels so real to me, or rather, unreal. You know what I mean. I don't even know if this universe exists. All I know is that I exist, and the contents of my consciousness describe some kind of universe. I enjoy being conscious, but the very concept thereof depresses me.
I've tried to use arguments such as, "Well, I can see myself in the mirror. Light is bouncing off of me, hitting the mirror, bouncing back, and going into my eyes. Thus I see myself." but this could all be part of the grand illusion.
I have also tried to think of the following.
1. If I am the only conscious one I am the universe, thus I am God.
2. Therefore if I am God, there must have been some point at which I was all powerful and all knowing and chose this life style.
3. But if I was all knowing, I would have known that by doing this, I would grieve myself.
But, unfortunatley, comes the counter argument.
1. However, I would have had more insight and would have possibly known that this would happen, but found a greater reason for this.
But this counter argument doesn't make sense.
So, that means that there must be something beyond my will which is making me experience these things. And if there is something beyond my will, thus something beyond me, I am not the only existance. But that doesn't prove I am not the only conscious one.
Please help me you guys. I really want some help. I want this topic promoted ASAP. I don't mean to be pushy, but I just can't live like this anymore. I want to have empathy, and compassion, and faith. And I want to know that reality is real.
Edited by Guido Arbia, : No reason given.

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by Sour, posted 09-27-2006 10:43 PM Christian7 has not replied
 Message 4 by RAZD, posted 09-27-2006 10:52 PM Christian7 has not replied
 Message 5 by nwr, posted 09-27-2006 11:26 PM Christian7 has replied
 Message 6 by Parasomnium, posted 09-28-2006 3:22 AM Christian7 has replied
 Message 11 by ramoss, posted 09-28-2006 9:45 PM Christian7 has not replied
 Message 13 by Legend, posted 09-29-2006 7:09 AM Christian7 has replied
 Message 15 by mike the wiz, posted 09-29-2006 7:53 AM Christian7 has not replied
 Message 18 by RickJB, posted 09-29-2006 8:49 AM Christian7 has not replied
 Message 19 by riVeRraT, posted 09-29-2006 9:40 AM Christian7 has not replied
 Message 31 by Hyroglyphx, posted 10-16-2006 4:23 PM Christian7 has replied

  
Christian7
Member (Idle past 248 days)
Posts: 628
From: n/a
Joined: 01-19-2004


Message 7 of 33 (352955)
09-28-2006 7:12 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by nwr
09-27-2006 11:26 PM


If you don't believe we exist, then how could we possibly persuade you otherwise. Why would you pay any attention to what is said by an illusion (or what you take to be an illusion)
Because whether or not you are an illusion, if you sastify me logically, theologically, philosophically, and scientifically, I will be able to believe you, and you thus could prove your own existance.
Edited by Guido Arbia, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by nwr, posted 09-27-2006 11:26 PM nwr has seen this message but not replied

  
Christian7
Member (Idle past 248 days)
Posts: 628
From: n/a
Joined: 01-19-2004


Message 8 of 33 (352957)
09-28-2006 7:17 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Parasomnium
09-28-2006 3:22 AM


Re: A foothold out of solipsism
When you say "you guys", who are you talking to? Are we not just part of your consciousness? Consider this: the fact that you pose this question the way you do, and that you expect an answer from us, isn't that a tell-tale sign of your doubt about your solipsism? After all, if you were really convinced of your solipsism, then this venue would not offer a solution, would it? Whatever we would say - or rather, whatever you would have us say - it would have come from your own mind.
My doubt of solipsism is fading and so is my empathy. It's a horrible thing. I don't know what to do.
Yet you try this in earnest. To my mind - and I assure you that it exists independently from yours - this means that you have doubts about your solipsistic thoughts. That's a foothold, you can use it to climb out of your predicament.
I am trying. Everytime I barely convince myself of objective reality, I am sastified only briefly. Then I return to my questions.
And here's another thing you can try. Consider your position in your thought-up world: you are not God, you are not the president, you're not even grown-up if I remember correctly. In fact, you are pretty powerless, you cannot change the way things are.
Now, can you think of a reason why, if your solipsism is true, your situation would be like this? Why isn't your world perfect and why are you not the most powerful being in it? The fact that your situation is far from perfect suggests an outside influence over which you have no control. That means that not everything is in your mind.
But this outside influence could merely be a component of my own existance. It could be my subconscious mind, which sustains the illusion of the universe.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Parasomnium, posted 09-28-2006 3:22 AM Parasomnium has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by Sonne, posted 09-28-2006 9:02 PM Christian7 has not replied
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Christian7
Member (Idle past 248 days)
Posts: 628
From: n/a
Joined: 01-19-2004


Message 14 of 33 (353057)
09-29-2006 7:25 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by Legend
09-29-2006 7:09 AM


I am currently struggling with debt, illness, pressure at work and family problems.
I'd love to have the time and energy to struggle with the objective concept of reality.
I don't think you would. Once you are convinced reality is an illusion, you will be upset.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by Legend, posted 09-29-2006 7:09 AM Legend has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 16 by iano, posted 09-29-2006 7:57 AM Christian7 has not replied
 Message 17 by Legend, posted 09-29-2006 8:33 AM Christian7 has not replied

  
Christian7
Member (Idle past 248 days)
Posts: 628
From: n/a
Joined: 01-19-2004


Message 20 of 33 (353245)
09-29-2006 7:54 PM


I think I solved the riddle.
OK, I really need help you guys. I think I am almost fully intellectually sastified. Help me clean out all the imperfections of my argument and provide a solid proof for what I wish to believe. And that is that the world exists and that other people are conscious. WOOT!
Guido Arbia
Reality exists
Each statement of the same letter is related in that if one is true, the others are as well. This means that two letters can come together and be therefored into another set of statements. However, to be correct, some conclusions have specified numbers as well as letters to be more precise.
A1. Nothing belongs to the consciousness because it is nothing but the self and free will.
A2. The unconscious mind does not belong to the conscious mind.
A3. The personality belongs to the unconscious mind.
B1. The world is sustained outside of the contents of the conscious mind.
B2. Thus the world exists within the unconscious mind.
Based on A and B we can conclude C.
C1. The world does not exist within one’s own mind.
C2. The world is independent from one’s own mind.
C3. The world clearly interacts with one’s self.
C4. The personality is in the world.
C5. What is seen in the contents of the consciousness is caused by what is in the world.
D. We observe people that have the same conscious nature as ourselves.
Based on C and D we can conclude E.
E. What we are seeing is actually there. People have this nature. Thus they are a person.
F. A person consists of a personality and a consciousness; otherwise they are not a person.
Based on E and F we can conclude that.
G. Other people exist, thus there are other consciousnesses beside us.
Now let me clear up a misconception. Things belong to a person, not a consciousness, but since the personality is irrefutably in the world, the argument does not fall apart. At least I hope it is irrefutable.

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by Ben!, posted 09-30-2006 12:23 PM Christian7 has replied
 Message 22 by Legend, posted 09-30-2006 3:42 PM Christian7 has replied
 Message 25 by mike the wiz, posted 10-02-2006 9:59 AM Christian7 has not replied
 Message 26 by mike the wiz, posted 10-02-2006 10:11 AM Christian7 has not replied

  
Christian7
Member (Idle past 248 days)
Posts: 628
From: n/a
Joined: 01-19-2004


Message 23 of 33 (353502)
10-01-2006 5:33 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by Legend
09-30-2006 3:42 PM


Re: I think I solved the riddle.
are you on drugs ?
You must be an evolutionist. They always make unsupported assertians such as the one you're making.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by Legend, posted 09-30-2006 3:42 PM Legend has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by kuresu, posted 10-02-2006 12:17 PM Christian7 has not replied

  
Christian7
Member (Idle past 248 days)
Posts: 628
From: n/a
Joined: 01-19-2004


Message 24 of 33 (353503)
10-01-2006 5:42 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by Ben!
09-30-2006 12:23 PM


Re: I think I solved the riddle.
I don't even know what any of these three premises mean.
What I mean is, in essence, one is pure consciousness. Thus, nothing belongs to them. A person is a construct of consciousness, developed personality, and memory. Something can only belong to a person, not a consciousness.
I would challenge you to think more deeply about your views on the conscious and unconscious mind.
What do you mean?
Huh? Isn't premise B2 that the world exists within your unconscious mind?
Notice that I said nothing belongs to the conscious mind. Therefore, I made no assertian that the unconscious mind was one's unconscious mind. Rather, it is simply a non-conscious construct, seperate from one's consciousness.
Didn't you say in your OP that we CANNOT observe this? We cannot observe other people's consciousness.
We cannot directly observe or imagine other people's consciosuness, but we can observe that they have it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by Ben!, posted 09-30-2006 12:23 PM Ben! has not replied

Replies to this message:
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Christian7
Member (Idle past 248 days)
Posts: 628
From: n/a
Joined: 01-19-2004


Message 32 of 33 (357071)
10-17-2006 1:33 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by Hyroglyphx
10-16-2006 4:23 PM


Re: Epistemics
Thank you so much. That really helps.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by Hyroglyphx, posted 10-16-2006 4:23 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by Hyroglyphx, posted 10-17-2006 1:45 PM Christian7 has not replied

  
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