The Other side of the Jesus coin

The main topic I will post will be taken from the God - AllAboutGOD.com site if you don't mind? The core will be about God. Is there a creator? It's what I believe. Now being a Christian for a little over two years now. So you don't have to believe it. Let's just look at the evidence logically. This will be a long post but I believe these are the most important questions to life. Thank you for your time.[Main body of message deleted because it was a very lengthy cut-n-paste from above referenced website. Disk space isn't free, folks, please conserve our resources. --Admin][This message has been edited by Admin, 03-29-2003]

I post these things because I deeply care for all people. Hindu, Buddhist or Satanists. Whoever you are. I am hoping you will just examine the evidence. Lets be wise and consider these things.[Main body of message deleted because it was a very lengthy cut-n-paste from another website. Please see next post for links. Disk space isn't free, folks, please conserve our resources. --Admin][This message has been edited by Admin, 03-29-2003]

Why did you just cut and paste almost an entire website: http://www.christian-church.net/why-christianity.htmand it's subwebs such as: http://www.new--age.net/ http://www.buddha-statue.org/If you have something to say, then say it and we can respond. But if you can't be bothered to write your own posts, why should be bother to answer?

Drum,Do you ever study any decent academic books or is your knowledge of Christianity and God limited to websites that aim their material at people with IQ's below 10?The material that you cut and pasted is nothing more than unsupported claptrap. It would take far too long to point out all the flaws in that page you posted, but here are a couple to be going on with. This is nonsense, it is the person making the existential claim that has the burden of proof. You say there is a God then its up to you to rpove it, not up to us to disprove. Since you say you are into logic then think about it logically, if we had to disprove every whacko idea that we get told about then we would have no time to do anything else. Here's an example, prove that I don't have an elf in my garden that comes out at night and talks to me, prove that Allah isn't God, prove that I am not a man from the 25th century that has travelled back in time, prove that Carl Baugh has a ph.d. Do you get the drift yet? If you say something exists then its up to you to prove it and until you have some real evidence of God then I think I will remain an atheist.Whoever wrote this page is nothing less than a moron with no critical evaluation skills, his/her statement Now an atheist doesn't believe this, an athiest believes that there is no evidence AT ALL for God's existence. What this idiot has described is an agnostic, because to say there's no GOOD evidence suggests that there is some evidence that is NOT good, an athiest would never admit that there is ANY evidence good or bad for God's existence. But an agnostic would, in fact, thats why they are agnostic because they are unsure about the 'evidence'. Drum, I teach part time, the students are aged 11-18 and I cannot imagine any of them making such a basic error. Why specifically the Bible, and why not the Qur'an or the vedas? Why do all the arguments for Jesus come from the Bible, all this person has done is pick out a few verses to support his delusion that Jesus is God. Why is it that someone who was so influential, so popular that thousands flocked to see him, is totally ignored by contemporary historians? Why do we have none of his belongings: Why do we have no idea where the greatest miracle of all actually took place: Why are there no witnesses to the resurrection? I am afraid that, like the other sites you frequent, this material is no better than a Junior School Religious Studies lesson. The DSS may prove the reliability of the HEBREW BIBLE as a text, but they do no prove that the HEBREW BIBLE is historically accurate or scientifically reliable. Funny how someof the scrolls were written exactly at the time Jesus was doing his stuff yet he is never mentioned anywhere in the DSS, if I were a Chrsitian I would be embarrassed that the authors of the scrolls didnt know that the very messiah that they had been writing about was actually walking amongst them.I am not even sure if this author knows that the DSS contain only the books of the Old Testament, minus Esther of course. The thing is, in his rant about the character of Jesus he only quotes the New Testament,then goes on to say that the DSS prove the reliability of the Bible, but the DSS do not even contain one syllable of any of the quotes this person gave, sorry but the author gets a D-.Drum, if I had the inclination I could reduce this person's theology to a pile of trash. I am certain that the scientists here could reduce this person's science to a pile of trash, but would it make one iota of a difference to you? I am sure it wouldn't. You see, you have made up your mind that Jesus is God and nothing we could show you would change your mind, no matter how ludicrous the Bible is, you are not interestedin critically evaluating the evidence.Oh, one question that maybe you could answer for yourself without posting a link or pasting a web page, could you tell me how I could prove to you that Jesus isn't God?Best WishesBrian.------------------
Remembering events that never happened is a dangerous thing![This message has been edited by Brian Johnston, 03-29-2003]

A few requests:

1. Please don't post lengthy cut-n-pastes here. Instead simply post the link along with some accompanying discussion that summarizes what the link says and ties it into the discussion.
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2. It is the responsibility of those engaging in debate with members they find frustrating to keep their frustrations from finding expression in their posts. I'm as guilty of this as anyone, but sometimes when I'm having trouble getting my point across I find it helps to imagine how I would explain it so my cat would understand it. Naturally my cat could never understand it no matter how long and cleverly I explained, and this sometimes helps put things in perspective for me. I'm not comparing the intellectual capacity of some members to cats, but sometimes we're coming from such opposite places that communication on some subjects isn't really possible, and sometimes you have to simply acknowledge this and move on.
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3. This thread seems to have drifted from the original topic, which was the possibility of improving one's life through rejection of Christianity. Time to close this thread?

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--EvC Forum Administrator

I put your advice into action and had a word with my cat. But when I mentioned the definition of an athiest from that site, my cat, well see for yourself!! But seriously, I will take your advice, I do get a bit frustrated with these type of sites, maybe I should just accept that there is always going to be people that think these sites are actually quite good. Perhaps it has something to do with being a teacher and truly believing that education is the only way to beat ignorance and that education and knowledge are wonderful things to share.PS. This isn't actually my cat, but it does look a lot like it!!
Who has been getting free html lessons?[This message has been edited by Brian Johnston, 03-29-2003]

My main concern when I was a Christian was that I couldn't reconcile it with the fact I was studying science. I found that it required doublethink, which was dishonest. (I realise part of the problem was the particular church I was involved in - most Christians don't believe in a young earth anyway. The fact that some do just made me realise that you can't trust any interpretation of the bible, when everyone disagrees with what it's saying.)The idea that man and dinosaurs walked the earth together is probably a trivial nonsense to most scientists, but it became an important issue for me at that time.So - still waiting to hear drum's answer to my evidence on that point.------------------
o--greyline--o

Brian Johnston,Where is your evidence that Jesus is not God?What makes the Bible different than any other book is prophecy and history. The Bible is foundational to all are thinking. The seven day week and marriage are a few examples. Look at the witnesses and the secular writings. 11 of the 12 disciples were tortured to death for Gospel. If you could please show me when Islam has brought peace? The Koran commends murdering the people of the book (Bible). Millions of Christians (Jews and Gentiles) have been slaughtered in the name of Allah. Even today in Arab countries, Asia and Russia Christians are being tortured and brutally murdered. These people are doind this in the name of Allah. For example. The Voice of the Martyrs & Home - Gospel for Asia Then one will say, "What about the crusades!" The crusades had nothing to do with the teachings of Jesus Christ. The crusadew were led by Catholocism. Not in any way do I hate people of other religions. I love and care for these people but lets look at the facts. The writings of Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism, etc. do not have prophecy. The prophecy in the Bible has been earth changing events, not some false Nostradamus claim. The Messiah Jesus Christ was a mystery before He was born. Lets look at the "evidence" of Biblical prophecy. I will start with the Old Testament. And just a few. Lets look this example then the New Testament. Lets not try to insult eachother. Lets just look at the evidence.Abraham's prophecies
ABRAHAM lived about 4000 years ago. He is the patriarch of many nations of people, including the Jews. He is the father of Isaac and the grandfather of Jacob.ABRAHAM lived about 4000 years ago. He is the patriarch of many nations of people, including the Jews. He is the father of Isaac and the grandfather of Jacob.
Genesis 12:2-3
The Jews would have a worldwide impact
Genesis 15:5
Counting Abraham's descendants would be like counting the stars
Genesis 15:18AMOS prophesized in Israel sometime around 750 BC - about 2750 years ago.
The Jews would have their own country
Amos 1:9-10
Tyre's fortresses would fail
Amos 9:11, 13
The ruins of Israel would be rebuilt
Amos 9:14-15
The Jews would regain control of IsraelDANIEL was among the Jews who were taken captive into Babylon about 2600 years ago. He rose to a high position in the Babylonian government. Daniel saw and described the great world empires that were to come. He also prophesied about a Messiah.
Daniel 2:32-33
Daniel predicted the four great kingdoms
Daniel 9:24-26
Daniel predicted when an anointed one would be rejected
Daniel 9:26
Daniel foretold the destruction of Jerusalem and the TempleEZEKIEL preached to Jews of the Babylonian captivity from 593 BC to 563 BC, according to the Bible's book of Ezekiel. The book discusses the fall of Jerusalem in 586 BC and contains many oracles of warning. He sometimes symbolically acted out his prophecies. He spoke about the restoration of Israel and the destruction of empires that sought to destroy Israel. Those empires, by the way, have been destroyed, and Israel today is being restored.
Ezekiel 4:3-6
Ezekiel predicted when Israel would be re-established
Ezekiel 11:17
The Jews would have Israel as their country, again
Ezekiel 20:34
Ezekiel said the Jews would return to Israel
Ezekiel 22:14-15
The Jews would be scattered to other countries
Ezekiel 25:14
The Jews would avenge the Edomites
Ezekiel 26:3
Tyre would be attacked by many nations
Ezekiel 26:4
Tyre would be scraped and made bare
Ezekiel 26:7-9
Tyre's mainland would be destroyed by Nebuchadnezzar
Ezekiel 26:12
Tyre's stones, timber and soil would be cast into the sea
Ezekiel 26:21
Tyre would never again be found
Ezekiel 29:15
Egypt would never again rule over nations
Ezekiel 34:13
The Jews would return to "their own land"
Ezekiel 36:8-10
Israel would be restored and repopulated
Ezekiel 36:11
Ezekiel prophesied prosperity for a restored Israel
Ezekiel 36:24
Israel would be re-gathered
Ezekiel 36:33-35
Israel would be rebuilt and resettled
Ezekiel 37:10-14
Israel would be brought back to life
Ezekiel 37:15-19
The Jews again would be a united people
Ezekiel 37:21-22
Israel would be re-established as a united nationHOSEA prophesied about 2750 years ago, during the reigns of the last two kings of Israel, shortly before Israel was conquered by the Assyrian Empire. Hosea prophesied of the desolations that would result from being unfaithful to God, and of God's promise to restore Israel.
Hosea 3:4-5
The Jews would live many days without a king
Hosea 9:17
The Jews would be like wanderers in other nationsISAIAH lived in Jerusalem about 2700 years ago, during the time in which the Assyrian Empire conquered the northern part of the Jewish homeland. The book of Isaiah contains many prophecies that are interpreted by Christians (including us at this web site) as being about the Messiah Jesus Christ. Today, we can see with our own eyes that many of Isaiah's prophecies have found fulfillment with the worldwide dispersion of Jews, the worldwide persecution of Jews, the recent worldwide migration of Jews back to Israel during the past century, the recent re-establishment and restoration of Israel, and the worldwide impact that Jews have had on the world.
Isaiah 11:1-10
Nations would seek the counsel of Jesse's descendantIsaiah 13:17
Babylon would be attacked by the MedesIsaiah 13:19
Babylon's kingdom would be overthrown, permanentlyIsaiah 14:23
Babylon would be reduced to swamplandIsaiah 27:6
Isaiah said Israel's fruit would fill the worldIsaiah 27:12-13
God promised to restore the JewsIsaiah 35:1-2
Isaiah foretold the restoration of IsraelIsaiah 40:3
The Messiah would be preceded by a messengerIsaiah 41:18-20
Trees again would grow in IsraelIsaiah 42:1-9
Jesus' life was foreshadowed by the prophet IsaiahIsaiah 43:5-6
Isaiah foretold of the worldwide return of Jews to IsraelIsaiah 45:1
Babylon's gates would open for CyrusIsaiah 49:6
God's salvation would reach the ends of the earthIsaiah 51:3
Israel's deserts will become like the Garden of EdenIsaiah 53:3
The Messiah would suffer and be rejectedIsaiah 53:5
God's servant would be wounded and whippedIsaiah 53:7
God's servant would be silent before His accusersIsaiah 53:9
God's servant would be buried in a rich man's tombIsaiah 53:12
God's servant would be crucified with criminalsIsaiah 66:7-8
Isaiah spoke of a Israel being reborn in one dayIsaiah 66:22
Isaiah said God would preserve the JewsJACOB was the grandson of Abraham and the father of the 12 Tribes of Israel. He was given a vision by God of Israel's future that proved to be accurate - that the Jews would establish their own nation, that they would be scattered like dust to the ends of the earth, that they would have a worldwide impact, and that they would one day return to their homeland. All of these things have happened since.
Genesis 28:10-15
Jacob saw a vision of Israel's futureGenesis 35:9-12
Jacob's descendants (the Jews) would inherit the land of IsraelGenesis 49:10
The Messiah would come from the tribe of JudahThis is just a few.

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Where is your evidence that Jesus is not God?

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Your first step, really, is to demonstrate that there is a God. And for practical reasons, it is not typically on the disbeliever to disprove but upon the believer to prove. Think of it like this. If there is God, then there ought to be evidence of it. In other words, if this assertion is true then one ought to be able to produce evidence. On the other hand, if the assertion is false then there may be no evidence at all, for or against; just as there is no evidence for or against giant pink whales a parallel dimension. Put yet another way, it is impossible to provide evidence against something that does not exist.Your next step is to demonstrate that Jesus is God. And here is it is much easier to argue. Jesus, for one, does not fit the bill for Messiah. This has come up before. EvC Forum: Luke and Matthews geneologies

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The Bible is foundational to all are thinking.

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How much, do you think, of the OT has made it down to us? You may be surprised if you think about it too much. The NT contains mostly Greek thought. Sorry to burst your bubble. The Classical age of Greece-- Socrates, that lot-- lived several hundred years before Christ and by the time of the NT Greek thought, now adopted by the Romans, was the driving force behind pretty much everything. And it shows.But how is this evidence?

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Look at the witnesses and the secular writings. 11 of the 12 disciples were tortured to death for Gospel.

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And?

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If you could please show me when Islam has brought peace?

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Islam united the many warring tribes of the region and then spread eventually creating an empire of ( relative ) peace for about 700 years. Some islamic cities had indoor plumbing and street lights while Christian Europe rotted in the dark ages.

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The Koran commends murdering the people of the book (Bible).

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Have you read the OT? Lots of murder commending in there. Ever hear of a sephardic jew, btw? The term is a reference to a region of Islamic controlled Spain where many jews found refuge for centuries.

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Millions of Christians (Jews and Gentiles) have been slaughtered in the name of Allah.

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And the reverse. Ever hear of the crusades? Do you really really want to play this game?

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The crusades had nothing to do with the teachings of Jesus Christ. The crusadew were led by Catholocism.

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LOL.... You are content to lump all Islam into the same category, but claim the primary christian force for most of the history of christianity doesn't count? You have got to be kidding.

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The writings of Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism, etc. do not have prophecy.

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Have you asked a muslim, buddhist or hindu? hmmm.... tried typing "buddha prophecy" into Google? Or "hindu prophecies"? Really, you should at least try to look this stuff up.

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The prophecy in the Bible has been earth changing events

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I put your list in a new thread, so as not to drive this one too far off course.------------------
No webpage found at provided URL: www.hells-handmaiden.com

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Where is your evidence that Jesus is not God?

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Try to remember that negative propositions are not open to proof in the same way as positive propositions. What, for example, is your proof that my grandfather was not God?

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What makes the Bible different than any other book is prophecy and history.

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Firstly, remember that the Bible is not a single work but a collection of documents. There are numerous works of prophecy through the ages and numerous works of history. Binding them together is not particularly significant.

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The Bible is foundational to all are thinking. The seven day week and marriage are a few examples.

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The seven day week was also used by the Chinese. Marriage is pretty much universal - Mayans and Aztecs had complex and significant marriage ceremonies and it was clearly an important institution to them.

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Look at the witnesses and the secular writings.

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Wouldn't it be more remarkable if the Bible gave accounts which were completely different from "secular" documents.

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11 of the 12 disciples were tortured to death for Gospel.

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A bit like the way Hypatia the Greek mathematician was tortured to death by Christian monks? Christian's have quite a history of torturing each other and others. Surely everyone who is tortured to death for their beliefs can't be following true beliefs?

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If you could please show me when Islam has brought peace?

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One could ask much the same about Christianity, couldn't we? Can you show me when Christians achieved this? Perhaps you would like to show that Christianity acheived a longer period of peace than Islam? Or perhaps you would like to show that Christianity has been more peaceful than Buddhism, or BonPo, or Baha'i?

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The Koran commends murdering the people of the book (Bible).

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As does the Bible when it comes to the Girgashites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites, and Jebusites. Not a lot of peace or tolerance there, is there? The entire book of Joshua is a glorification of genocide.

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Millions of Christians (Jews and Gentiles) have been slaughtered in the name of Allah.

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And millions of Jews, Mayans, Aztecs, etc murdered in the name of the Christian God. Your point is?

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Even today in Arab countries, Asia and Russia Christians are being tortured and brutally murdered. These people are doind this in the name of Allah.

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What is so significant about "today?" Torture and murder in the name of Christ have been endemic for centuries.

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The crusades had nothing to do with the teachings of Jesus Christ. The crusadew were led by Catholocism.

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No - the crusades involved Christians. This was before the Reformation, remember. After the reformation of course, the protestants found a whole new sport in murdering and torturing catholics: Cromwell's campaign in Ireland was particularly brutal.

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The writings of Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism, etc. do not have prophecy.

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I think this is very naive. Islam is rich in prophetic writings - have you never even heard of the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh)?
As for Buddhist prophecies, Padma Sambhava, the Great Thirteenth, the oracular tradition of Nechung, or Japanese mappo.
Hindu - wow, where to start? The Puranas are particularly rich in prophecy, but Hindu scripture is just full of prophecy.As for your list of prophecies, I see another thread discussing them, which is probably a good idea.

Dear Drum, Please explain 'My Father, why hast thou forsaken me?'
Mike.

Mike Holland,I believe we have to start foundationally. When trying to interprate the Sciptures I believe it is key that we dont just take one verse and build off that. I'm not saying you are. Everything ties together. For example it says whoever believes in Jesus will be saved but we have to look at the whole of the commandments. We have to repent of our sin as well. Of course as a Christian I still sin and fall. But God desires that we come to Him with a broken and contrite spirit and He will forgive and cleanse us. He will guide you with His Spirit and open your understanding even deeper to His Word if you receive Him. We have to receive His work on our behalf because there is nothing in us to justify ourselves or ever will be. Thats what sets Christianity apart from the religions of the world. So to not get off the subject, God is one but three persons. Father, Son and Holy Spirit. God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. Because Jesus Christ is the Son doesn't mean He is not equal with the Father. He said I and my Father are one. When Moses was at the burning bush the Lord said I AM. When Jesus was talking with the Pharisees He said before Abraham was I AM. The Bible in a way is a message system linked together. King David wrote Psalm 22 3,000 years ago. In it he wrote My God, My God why have you forsaken me. It was a Messianic prophecy about the suffering of the Christ. Christ was born of a virginn because if it would have been through the seed of man it would have been contaminated with sin. So He was born by the Spirit. In Phillipians 2:6-8 it is written,Who being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men. And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to death, even the death of the cross.So we have here the redemptive plan of the creator. Before the foundation of the world God already knew He would come to redeem mankind. God created the heavens and the earth. He created man in His image. (Having some of His attributes.)He created man with ability to choose good or evil. If not love would be rendered meaningless. We would be puppets. He planted a tree in the garden as a test to see if man would love, obey and appreciate God. I look at the tree test as a symbol of sin. We have all eaten from the fruit. So we cannot blame Adam and Eve because we all have sinned. Because God is the Holy, righteous and just King of the universe He had to judge this act of rebellion. He cursed the earth. It totally changed everything. But the time would come that He would become man and be the sacrifice. He came into the world and the punishment of our sin was placed on Christ. He was stricken, beaten, mocked, spit upon and then nailed to the cross. The just penalty of sin was placed on Christ. When He was on the cross He cried out "My God! My God!" That was the first time that He was ever seperated from the Father. When you look at the law the sacrifice of animals, the blood on the door posts in Egypt, etc. was all a picture of what would be fulfilled in Jesus Christ. Through His blood we are free. No world religion has God as a humble servant and Himself taking the penalty. All the religions of the world rely on mans righteousness. Were all God. Mother Earth. Everything by chance. Or many gods at war with eachother. Or idols crafted by men of dust. Look at Islam. At the end of time Allah will judge you. If your good deeds outweigh your bad you enter heaven. No court of law would pass something like that. That is one clear example of Islam being made by man. Basically Christ said no man will enter the kingdom unless He is born again. Born from above. The great thing about the Gospel(The good news) is that God is coming to us to give us a new life not a religion made by man. Because we are all fallen and dead in our sin and we need His sacrifice. Think about it. God says that you and I are so precious to Him that He went all the way to the death of the cross to give us a new life and spend eternity with Him. What an amazing concept! What an amazing message! Because its true my friend. It is a very narrow line that leads to eternal life. You will be percecuted for being a Christian because man loves darkness. Man thinks that because of his possesions he doesn't need God. But the tragedy of that is that it is blinding, deceptive and foolish.[This message has been edited by drummachine, 04-03-2003]

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Look at Islam. At the end of time Allah will judge you. If your good deeds outweigh your bad you enter heaven. No court of law would pass something like that. That is one clear example of Islam being made by man.

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This is a dire misrepresentation of Islamic doctrine.Islam always emphasises belief before good deeds. "Those who believe and do good deeds." Nor is the judgement envisioned the simple balancing act you suggest. Allah multiplies the good deeds of the faithful, from mercy and from an understanding of how close men are to sin.You are, of course, very welcome to your own faith. However, there is no need to denigrate others to support your own case.Firstly there is the danger that that your own doctrine will actually poorly founded if it must misrepresent others to appear in a better light.Secondly, although you may be absolutely assured of your faith in your own heart, you must also know that you are speaking to the uncoverted too, and to them you have a responsibility to present the truth, for if you persuade them with false arguments you do not persuade them to a true faith.Lastly, it's just plain rude and disrespectful.

I care for all people of other religions. But there can only be one truth. I cannot help it that the Gospel is offensive to people. Its not my Gospel. If you are a Muslim or not or you agree with the teachings of the Qur'an do you mind if I ask you a few questions?1.So how is sin attoned for by Allah?2.How is one declared righteous before Allah?3.When has Islam brought peace?4.In the name of Allah has his followers murdered millions of people in obedience to the Qur'an?5.Are Muslims still murdering people today in the name of Allah?6.Muslims believe the Bible is corrupted, would you please give me the evidence of this?

We look at the tragedy of lets say the Amalekites. 400 years God gave them and they would not repent. God cannot let sin go on. Sin destroys everything. He has to judge people. He does not want people to sin. If these Christians were murdering people it contradicted the teachings of Christ. The Crusades and things like that were done in the name of Catholocism. Its interesting how for example that there are thousands of stories that sound like the flood in ancient cultures today. Maybe they had the original(Bible) but it has been distorted. What prophecy other then the Bible has been fulfilled?[This message has been edited by drummachine, 04-03-2003]