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Author Topic:   Fact Theory Falacy
Cobra_snake
Inactive Member


Message 17 of 136 (3571)
02-06-2002 7:56 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by Late_Cretaceous
02-05-2002 11:34 PM


quote:
Originally posted by Late_Cretaceous:
Here are the FACTS:

I find it interesting that most of those "Facts" fit just as well (if not better) under a creationist model. As TrueCreation pointed out to you, not too many of your "facts" contradict Creation at all.
An example of a mutation creating something new would be interesting, since it would take millions of these to create the diversity of life as we see it today.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by Late_Cretaceous, posted 02-05-2002 11:34 PM Late_Cretaceous has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by joz, posted 02-06-2002 8:04 PM Cobra_snake has replied

  
joz
Inactive Member


Message 18 of 136 (3572)
02-06-2002 8:04 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by Cobra_snake
02-06-2002 7:56 PM


quote:
Originally posted by Cobra_snake:
An example of a mutation creating something new would be interesting, since it would take millions of these to create the diversity of life as we see it today.
Um bud we have millions of years in our model......

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by Cobra_snake, posted 02-06-2002 7:56 PM Cobra_snake has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by KingPenguin, posted 02-06-2002 8:07 PM joz has replied
 Message 28 by TrueCreation, posted 02-06-2002 10:55 PM joz has replied
 Message 34 by Cobra_snake, posted 02-07-2002 3:35 PM joz has replied

  
KingPenguin
Member (Idle past 7884 days)
Posts: 286
From: Freeland, Mi USA
Joined: 02-04-2002


Message 19 of 136 (3574)
02-06-2002 8:07 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by joz
02-06-2002 8:04 PM


quote:
Originally posted by joz:
Um bud we have millions of years in our model......

your also assuming that a mutation occurs every year or so. which you know well that it doesnt.
------------------
"Overspecialize and you breed in weakness" -"Major" Motoko Kusanagi
[This message has been edited by KingPenguin, 02-06-2002]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by joz, posted 02-06-2002 8:04 PM joz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by joz, posted 02-06-2002 8:10 PM KingPenguin has not replied
 Message 21 by joz, posted 02-06-2002 8:11 PM KingPenguin has not replied

  
joz
Inactive Member


Message 20 of 136 (3575)
02-06-2002 8:10 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by KingPenguin
02-06-2002 8:07 PM


He said it would take millions of years I pointed out that we have millions of years (hundress of millions in fact)....
So any assumptions were Cobra`s not mine...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by KingPenguin, posted 02-06-2002 8:07 PM KingPenguin has not replied

  
joz
Inactive Member


Message 21 of 136 (3576)
02-06-2002 8:11 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by KingPenguin
02-06-2002 8:07 PM


quote:
Originally posted by KingPenguin:
your also assuming that a mutation occurs every year or so. which you know damn well that it doesnt.

Yes your quite right they happen rather more freqeuntly than 1 a year....

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by KingPenguin, posted 02-06-2002 8:07 PM KingPenguin has not replied

  
KingPenguin
Member (Idle past 7884 days)
Posts: 286
From: Freeland, Mi USA
Joined: 02-04-2002


Message 22 of 136 (3577)
02-06-2002 8:13 PM


message 20- i see what you mean.
message 21- gimme some proof and explain more.
------------------
"Overspecialize and you breed in weakness" -"Major" Motoko Kusanagi

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by gene90, posted 02-06-2002 8:40 PM KingPenguin has not replied
 Message 24 by joz, posted 02-06-2002 8:42 PM KingPenguin has replied

  
gene90
Member (Idle past 3823 days)
Posts: 1610
Joined: 12-25-2000


Message 23 of 136 (3584)
02-06-2002 8:40 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by KingPenguin
02-06-2002 8:13 PM


[QUOTE][b]
message 21- gimme some proof and explain more. [/QUOTE]
[/b]
What causes the formation of a cancer? A mutation. How many cases of cancer are there in one year? More than one.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by KingPenguin, posted 02-06-2002 8:13 PM KingPenguin has not replied

  
joz
Inactive Member


Message 24 of 136 (3585)
02-06-2002 8:42 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by KingPenguin
02-06-2002 8:13 PM


From:
http://ww2.lafayette.edu/~hollidac/mutationrate.html
quote:
For example, Postgate's calculation can be used to show that each of us produces 20 x 10^9 (20 billion) E. coli each day and that E. coli mutates at the approximate rate of one mutant gene per 1 x 10^7 (10 million) bacteria. Thus we can calculate that in each of our guts each day there are two thousand mutations in E. coli genes. I wonder if Jeremy Rifkin has ever considered the fact that, each time he travels to give a public lecture on the alleged dangers of genetic engineering, he is releasing two thousand or so mutant strains of E. coli from his own gut into the local public sewer system (I'm assuming here that he spends one day in the city where he speaks and that he is a regular guy). It is very unlikely that the research labs Rifkin is so fond of excoriating release such a number of mutant bacteria into the environment in a year. Should his movements be restricted on the grounds that he is releasing 730,000 mutant bacteria per year into the environment?
I`d say rather more than 1 mutation a year eh?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by KingPenguin, posted 02-06-2002 8:13 PM KingPenguin has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by mark24, posted 02-06-2002 8:58 PM joz has not replied
 Message 26 by KingPenguin, posted 02-06-2002 10:14 PM joz has not replied

  
mark24
Member (Idle past 5196 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


Message 25 of 136 (3589)
02-06-2002 8:58 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by joz
02-06-2002 8:42 PM


To add to Joz',
HIV RNA mutates over a million times faster than human DNA. It is (& has been) possible to construct "evolutionary trees" of HIV strains in a SINGLE PERSON. ie, If you've had it long enough, you're privy to your own personal strains of the virus.
It is possible, because of this rapid mutation rate to examine HIV RNA & construct a tree of who infected who. This also has been done, where an outbreak was extrapolated back to a single dentist, by looking at who MUST HAVE infected who (regardless of what those people said!).
This is the power of genetically derived phylogenies.
The methods can happily save lives
Mark
------------------
Occam's razor is not for shaving with.

This message is a reply to:
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KingPenguin
Member (Idle past 7884 days)
Posts: 286
From: Freeland, Mi USA
Joined: 02-04-2002


Message 26 of 136 (3594)
02-06-2002 10:14 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by joz
02-06-2002 8:42 PM


quote:
Originally posted by joz:
From:
http://ww2.lafayette.edu/~hollidac/mutationrate.html
I`d say rather more than 1 mutation a year eh?

does the mutant bacteria affect the actual genetic code of the bacteria's creator?
------------------
"Overspecialize and you breed in weakness" -"Major" Motoko Kusanagi
[This message has been edited by KingPenguin, 02-06-2002]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by joz, posted 02-06-2002 8:42 PM joz has not replied

  
TrueCreation
Inactive Member


Message 27 of 136 (3597)
02-06-2002 10:51 PM


Is there evidence to substantiate a plausable evolutionary ideal observable mechenism by which we can view a single-celled organism on its way with evolutionary guidance? Thus falsifying the fellow creationist implication that you cannot get anything new out of 'e'volution, and that it is nothing more than a devolving process if any change (evolution simply meaning change).
------------------

  
TrueCreation
Inactive Member


Message 28 of 136 (3599)
02-06-2002 10:55 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by joz
02-06-2002 8:04 PM


"Um bud we have millions of years in our model......"
--The thing is, is that we need mutations and natural selections to co-opt with our theories on anatomical, biological, and botinal diversity, speciation, and variation. It seems as we observe today, things are getting more specialized, simply losing and scrambling what we already have, this is well represented in variations in Dogs, think about it, the chuawa for instance, all that work to create a perfectly useless dog, any more variation in the chuawa, its in the shallow gene pool.
------------------

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by joz, posted 02-06-2002 8:04 PM joz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by KingPenguin, posted 02-06-2002 11:03 PM TrueCreation has not replied
 Message 30 by joz, posted 02-06-2002 11:43 PM TrueCreation has not replied

  
KingPenguin
Member (Idle past 7884 days)
Posts: 286
From: Freeland, Mi USA
Joined: 02-04-2002


Message 29 of 136 (3601)
02-06-2002 11:03 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by TrueCreation
02-06-2002 10:55 PM


yeah hehe i even say this in my signature. things need to be diverse to be strong. if something gets too specialized for its purpose itll die as soon as a change occurs simply because evolution more than likely cant keep up with most environmental changes.
------------------
"Overspecialize and you breed in weakness" -"Major" Motoko Kusanagi

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by TrueCreation, posted 02-06-2002 10:55 PM TrueCreation has not replied

  
joz
Inactive Member


Message 30 of 136 (3612)
02-06-2002 11:43 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by TrueCreation
02-06-2002 10:55 PM


quote:
Originally posted by TrueCreation:
The chuawa for instance, all that work to create a perfectly useless dog, any more variation in the chuawa, its in the shallow gene pool.

First that is Chihuahua not chuawa....
second this is a bloody dumb example in case you did not realise chihuahuas are a domesticated breed of dog i.e. natural selection (apart from terribly lethal mutations) takes a back seat to selective breeding by us humans....
If chihuahuas had evolved sans human influence you might have a point as it is you don`t.....
Just for reference what is your opinion of poodles?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by TrueCreation, posted 02-06-2002 10:55 PM TrueCreation has not replied

  
joz
Inactive Member


Message 31 of 136 (3622)
02-07-2002 12:40 AM
Reply to: Message 16 by KingPenguin
02-06-2002 7:48 PM


quote:
Originally posted by KingPenguin:
i dont fully understand what your asking.
Simply prove that 1+1=2 (it can be done)
This is a good exercise for you in the nature of proof...
1+1=2 is an a priori statement which may or may not be true (I`m not saying it isn`t) untill you prove it mathmaticaly it is no more valid than saying 1+1=3......
(hint: the first step is to define 1, then define addition, then define 2 all that is left then is to bring it all together)
I`m just aking you to do this so that you learn the difference between 1+1=2 as an a priori statement that seems to work and 1+1=2 as a mathmaticaly proved statement.....
[This message has been edited by joz, 02-07-2002]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by KingPenguin, posted 02-06-2002 7:48 PM KingPenguin has not replied

  
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