Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
5 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,815 Year: 3,072/9,624 Month: 917/1,588 Week: 100/223 Day: 11/17 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Jesus's motives for performing miracles.
Larni
Member (Idle past 164 days)
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 1 of 69 (357677)
10-20-2006 9:23 AM


If any one has been following The Great Debate thread between Iano and I they will be able to see how faith acts as the conduit for salvation through christ.
Now, I have been wondering (but not wanting to side track Iano as promised) exactly why Jesus felt the need to perform miracles.
It is clear that any one watching him transmogrify water to wine, heal the lame etc could not really doubt that someting psuedonatural is going on.
Does this not remove the 'faith' in his followers? People who believe that Jesus was the son of the xian god can point to Jesus and say "but see his power, he must be the son of our god".
Would xians have the opportunity to be more 'faithful' without the miracles?
So, my question is two fold:
What was the motive of Jesus in doing his miracles?
Do his miracles invalidate faith in xians because they give what many here at EVC have long asked for: evidence?
Faith (no pun intended)and belief please.

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by Brian, posted 10-20-2006 11:10 AM Larni has not replied
 Message 4 by Faith, posted 10-20-2006 11:28 AM Larni has replied
 Message 5 by iano, posted 10-20-2006 11:56 AM Larni has not replied
 Message 9 by jar, posted 10-20-2006 12:43 PM Larni has not replied
 Message 41 by Hyroglyphx, posted 10-22-2006 10:57 AM Larni has replied
 Message 51 by Archer Opteryx, posted 10-25-2006 4:06 AM Larni has replied

  
AdminPhat
Inactive Member


Message 2 of 69 (357694)
10-20-2006 10:26 AM


Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 3 of 69 (357702)
10-20-2006 11:10 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Larni
10-20-2006 9:23 AM


What was the motive of Jesus in doing his miracles?
Material gain and stardom.
Do his miracles invalidate faith in xians because they give what many here at EVC have long asked for: evidence?
It doesn't negate faith because they need faith to believe that the events have been accurately recorded.
Brian.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Larni, posted 10-20-2006 9:23 AM Larni has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 4 of 69 (357705)
10-20-2006 11:28 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Larni
10-20-2006 9:23 AM


I have been wondering ... exactly why Jesus felt the need to perform miracles.
"That ye might believe" says John. Believe that He is God for one thing. They demonstrate that He is in fact God.
It is clear that any one watching him transmogrify water to wine, heal the lame etc could not really doubt that someting psuedonatural is going on.
"Pseudonatural?" What does that mean? Is it just a way of denigrating the events? Who could possibly transform plain water into wine other than God Himself? Ditto healings.
Does this not remove the 'faith' in his followers? People who believe that Jesus was the son of the xian god can point to Jesus and say "but see his power, he must be the son of our god".
People get very strange ideas about what faith is. You can't have faith unless you have evidence. You have to believe that what was said happened did in fact happen, and it gives a foundation for believing the gospel of salvation.
Would xians have the opportunity to be more 'faithful' without the miracles?
What would there be to have faith IN in that case? The miracles give evidence on which to build faith.
So, my question is two fold:
What was the motive of Jesus in doing his miracles?
To demonstrate that He is indeed God and that one should put trust in Him. See above.
Do his miracles invalidate faith in xians because they give what many here at EVC have long asked for: evidence?
Far from it. See above. Most of us creationists and Biblical Christians have argued all along that we DO have evidence, that the Bible is evidence. The Bible is chock full of reports of the miracles and character of God, all of which is evidence. Evolutionists and atheists deny that it is good evidence, but we don't. Glad you recognize that it is at least evidence.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Larni, posted 10-20-2006 9:23 AM Larni has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by Legend, posted 10-20-2006 12:09 PM Faith has replied
 Message 18 by Larni, posted 10-20-2006 7:38 PM Faith has replied
 Message 20 by Brian, posted 10-20-2006 8:54 PM Faith has replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 5 of 69 (357715)
10-20-2006 11:56 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Larni
10-20-2006 9:23 AM


What was the motive of Jesus in doing his miracles?
As Faith said: in order to give people a means whereby they could believe he was the son of God. Evidence. It wasn't only his miracles though. Things that he said and did caused people to wonder about him: he spoke with an authority that their religious leaders didn't have - in fact he regularily left the Religious leaders dumbfounded and at a loss - them slinking away until they could figure out another way to trap him in what he said. They never did.
See the miracles as cherrys on a cake. I mean: imagine for a moment what it would have been like to be around someone who never sinned: never an unrighteously angry word, never spoke a cutting criticism, never an evil notion. Always kind, gentle, compassionate. That would catch your attention. There have been very good men who had this characteristic - and they were attractive to people as he was.
But separating him from those good men he spoke of amazing things - and with total confidence: eternal life. Not an eternal life that had to be earned but which was given as a gift. He assumed the authority of God and said if people "had seen him they had seen the Father" People attracted to him as a good man would now be challenged by this extra element. Others have claimed such things however.
Then come the miracles. This is what sets him apart. He could talk the talk. The miracles showed them he could walk the walk. Others have not been able to maintain that progression. Others have been able to counterfeit all aspects - there are such things as spiritual powers. But no one could achieve all of what he achieved. A totally good man, a man who made the claim that he was God. A man who could back up his claims with miracles. A man who could rise from the dead - the greatest miracle of all.
But folk then as now do not have to believe him. He was accused of deriving his powers from satan. One could accuse him of trickeryThe option to deny was always there. It still is.
Do his miracles invalidate faith in xians because they give what many here at EVC have long asked for: evidence?
"Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." A Christian today has access to the miraculous. The miracle is not an external one but an internal on. A person who becomes a Christian has a transformation occur to them that is far more impressive than water into wine. Someone changing water into wine can always be passed off as sleight of hand or conspiracy or fraud. You cannot always believe what your eyes tell you. When it goes on within however there is no possible way to deny that that miracle has occurred. No sleight of hand is possible.
A Christian believes because he is given reason to. No one could believe something like this without being totally convinced. That would be irrational
Edited by iano, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Larni, posted 10-20-2006 9:23 AM Larni has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by Faith, posted 10-20-2006 12:06 PM iano has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 6 of 69 (357720)
10-20-2006 12:06 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by iano
10-20-2006 11:56 AM


Um, not sure this ...
never spoke a cutting criticism...
is true:
Mat 23:27 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead [men's] bones, and of all uncleanness.
And etc.
It's an off-topic point though, and I agree with your general message.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by iano, posted 10-20-2006 11:56 AM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by iano, posted 10-20-2006 12:10 PM Faith has not replied

  
Legend
Member (Idle past 5006 days)
Posts: 1226
From: Wales, UK
Joined: 05-07-2004


Message 7 of 69 (357722)
10-20-2006 12:09 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by Faith
10-20-2006 11:28 AM


what about us?
"That ye might believe" says John. Believe that He is God for one thing. They demonstrate that He is in fact God.
question: why was only this specific generation chosen to be demonstrated to ?
how are we -200 generations removed- supposed to believe ?

"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by Faith, posted 10-20-2006 11:28 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by Faith, posted 10-20-2006 6:29 PM Legend has replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 8 of 69 (357723)
10-20-2006 12:10 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Faith
10-20-2006 12:06 PM


Forgot to insert "unrighteous" between the "never spoke a" and "cutting criticism"
Thanks for the heads up sis

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Faith, posted 10-20-2006 12:06 PM Faith has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 9 of 69 (357736)
10-20-2006 12:43 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Larni
10-20-2006 9:23 AM


Why?
I imagine some were just the normal urge we all feel at times to help out. For example, we might volunteer to make the beer run or bring extra food to a pot luck supper. Others seem to be motivated by an urge to help someone in pain or suffering.
If the miracles actually happened, I would imagine they were motivated by the same things that we experience today. That He was more successful than you or I might be simply shows that like a great athlete he was better at praying than we are.
Remember, if the miracles happened they were not done by Jesus but by GOD through him.
And I doubt that they really could be called evidence. Even if they were done in the presence of James Randi, I think the best we could hope for would be a decision that it was unexplained.
I think the important part of the miracles is not whether or not they happened or even if they were miraculous as opposed to magic, but that they teach us a lesson.
We are charged to try to do what is right with the capabilities given us. Maybe I cannot perform miracles, but perhaps I can help feed someone, or bring joy to a festive occasion, or comfort someone who is sick, or through the World Grid Project help develop methods to screen for cancer or find a new drug for diabetes.
Do the miracles invalidate faith? I don't think so.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Larni, posted 10-20-2006 9:23 AM Larni has not replied

  
subbie
Member (Idle past 1254 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 10 of 69 (357753)
10-20-2006 1:12 PM


So, there are those who claim that he did it to prove he was the son of god. In other words, it had nothing to do with the suffering of the people he helped, it was all self-promotion. Well, at least that's consistent with the view that some have expressed here that there's no reason to care about other people other than because god tells ya to.
Personally, I think he did it to pick up chicks.
As far as who else could do the things he did, well, hucksters on television do much the same thing every day, and for apparently similar reasons, i.e., to make people believe the things they say are true. Of course, that's completely different because the hucksters are frauds, but Jesus was the real McCoy.
Edited by subbie, : No reason given.

Those who would sacrifice an essential liberty for a temporary security will lose both, and deserve neither. -- Benjamin Franklin

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by Faith, posted 10-20-2006 6:43 PM subbie has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 11 of 69 (357826)
10-20-2006 6:29 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by Legend
10-20-2006 12:09 PM


Re: what about us?
"That ye might believe" says John. Believe that He is God for one thing. They demonstrate that He is in fact God.
question: why was only this specific generation chosen to be demonstrated to ?
how are we -200 generations removed- supposed to believe ?
The miracles were done for us as well as them. We are to believe the written reports of the demonstrations, all of them back through Moses' reports. As Jesus told the rich man in Hades, even if one rose from the dead to inform his brothers, they would not believe if they hadn't already believed Moses. He also told his disciples that those who rejected them as witnesses also rejected Him. He also told Thomas that those who hadn't needed to see in order to believe were blessed. That includes all who believe the reports now, never having seen. That's how it works, Legend. You want it to work some other way, as most of us would have it, but we aren't God.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by Legend, posted 10-20-2006 12:09 PM Legend has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by Legend, posted 10-20-2006 6:55 PM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 12 of 69 (357833)
10-20-2006 6:43 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by subbie
10-20-2006 1:12 PM


So, there are those who claim that he did it to prove he was the son of god. In other words, it had nothing to do with the suffering of the people he helped, it was all self-promotion.
The ability some have to make something evil out of something good is astonishing. It had everything to do with the suffering of the people, as it frequently states He was moved by compassion. But He didn't have to help in a miraculous way, and He also didn't and doesn't heal all suffering people either. The miracles were to demonstrate that He possesses the power of God so that we might believe and be saved -- which is ALSO about the suffering of the people He helps -- those of us He saves.
As far as who else could do the things he did, well, hucksters on television do much the same thing every day, and for apparently similar reasons, i.e., to make people believe the things they say are true. Of course, that's completely different because the hucksters are frauds, but Jesus was the real McCoy.
That's correct, either they are hucksters or they have the power of God and a major clue is that nobody charges for the power of God. Nobody can turn water into wine but God, nobody can heal lameness or blindness but God, nobody can raise the dead but God.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by subbie, posted 10-20-2006 1:12 PM subbie has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by subbie, posted 10-20-2006 6:58 PM Faith has replied

  
Legend
Member (Idle past 5006 days)
Posts: 1226
From: Wales, UK
Joined: 05-07-2004


Message 13 of 69 (357837)
10-20-2006 6:55 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by Faith
10-20-2006 6:29 PM


Re: what about us?
yes, I understand all that. I'm just saying that if Jesus thought that those who didn't see were blessed, then why did be bother to show anyone at all?
He could have just said he was the Son of God and leave them to it. Those who believed him would be truly blessed, as he said.
Instead, he chose to break his own principle and reveal his true nature but only to a specific audience at a specific time and place.
I just don't understand why he would do that. If, like you claim, he wanted to demonstrate that he was God, then surely he could do it in a way that all people on earth at that time would notice, or in a way that everyone in that place ever after would notice.
If on the other hand he values faith, like he said, why is he only requesting it from us but not them?
It's a mystery to me!

"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by Faith, posted 10-20-2006 6:29 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by Faith, posted 10-20-2006 7:07 PM Legend has not replied
 Message 17 by Larni, posted 10-20-2006 7:17 PM Legend has not replied

  
subbie
Member (Idle past 1254 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 14 of 69 (357838)
10-20-2006 6:58 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by Faith
10-20-2006 6:43 PM


It had everything to do with the suffering of the people, as it frequently states He was moved by compassion. But He didn't have to help in a miraculous way, and He also didn't and doesn't heal all suffering people either.
The fact that you didn't see fit to mention that as the first and primary reason for him performing the miracles strongly suggests to me that you don't think that was the most important reason.
...a major clue is that nobody charges for the power of God.
Neither do the televangelical hucksters. They simply ask for donations.

Those who would sacrifice an essential liberty for a temporary security will lose both, and deserve neither. -- Benjamin Franklin

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by Faith, posted 10-20-2006 6:43 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 16 by Faith, posted 10-20-2006 7:10 PM subbie has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 15 of 69 (357842)
10-20-2006 7:07 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by Legend
10-20-2006 6:55 PM


Re: what about us?
yes, I understand all that. I'm just saying that if Jesus thought that those who didn't see were blessed, then why did be bother to show anyone at all?
He could have just said he was the Son of God and leave them to it. Those who believed him would be truly blessed, as he said.
Well, but this shows that we do respect empirical evidence, as we have always claimed. Simply saying you are something or other means nothing, nor should it. People do lie. There are hucksters in the world. False Christs, false saviors galore. Of course. God respects that we need empirical evidence and therefore He provided it, both in His first calling of His people, and in His new covenant, when it was crucial that His identity be established. And we have it all in the Biblical reports. Many witnesses, many details to support the claims, etc. etc. etc.
Instead, he chose to break his own principle
He never gave such a principle. You are adding things to it from your own imagination.
...and reveal his true nature but only to a specific audience at a specific time and place.
Those "audiences" were those of the very first generation He called out of the world to be His own people. He established His identity and ratified the calling of the Israelites out of Egypt with miracles, and did the same with the calling out of the first followers of Christ to form the New Creation.
I just don't understand why he would do that. If, like you claim, he wanted to demonstrate that he was God, then surely he could do it in a way that all people on earth at that time would notice, or in a way that everyone in that place ever after would notice.
Of course He could have. He could also have refused to save even Noah and family and let the whole human race perish. He could also have struck Adam and Eve dead on the spot when they disobeyed. Or He could have made it impossible for them to disobey. He has no intention of saving all or condemning all. His ways are above our ways, and His objectives beyond what we are capable of imagining. He has a different plan, a better one than we are capable of imagining.
If on the other hand he values faith, like he said, why is he only requesting it from us but not them?
They needed faith too. People can disbelieve their own eyes and many did. Many witnessed the miracles of Christ who did not become His followers, or fell away after a while. Same in the generation of Moses. They saw amazing miracles, but many of them nevertheless fell into disbelief and disobedience soon after.
It's a mystery to me!
It's a mystery to all who won't simply believe.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by Legend, posted 10-20-2006 6:55 PM Legend has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by honda33, posted 10-20-2006 8:02 PM Faith has replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024