Jesus's motives for performing miracles.

Well, I believe I've answered this. I did not confine the definition to believing something. Belief leading to trust to the point of acting on it is faith. Didn't I say that? I didn't say that. I said we have evidence for our faith in God. I have no idea. I'm only explaining Biblical faith. This has nothing to do with faith as far as I can see. Belief in what? Faith is in a person, it is trust in that person's promises and so on. Believing that person is God gives a basis for such trust. I consider the evidence of the miracles that establish who God is to be conclusive evidence myself. That it is faith in the greatest possible, in God.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

The millions who have had only the written testimony to the miracles have not suffered any inferiority in the quality of their faith. I believe God disagrees with you about that. That's right, obviously he chose to do it the way he did it, and he's smarter than us so don't fight it. It isn't extra evidence. We have the same evidence through their witness. I quoted some passages of scripture itself that say that seeing is no more believing than hearing about it. You simply insist on doing it your way instead of God's way. That's your prerogative, of course.

Not in the exact words, but I believe it's implicit in this quote -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- OK OK So let me see if I am with you
Faith requires(1) I am presented with the evidence.
(2) I believe the evidence.
(3) My belief leads to trust to the point of acting on it.
(4) My faith is in GodNow if these are the requirements for faith, I can certainly see Jesus motivation for performing miracles. I believe that the mindset of the people is what determined Jesus' choice of miracles. Those people living in bible times were very stiff-necked and highly skeptical. You could not initiate faith with substandard evidence. With all the high profile miracles Jesus performed, they still cried "crucify him". Even after His death a three hour solar eclipse did not even stir these skeptics. Resurrected saints walking all around Jerusalem did not elicit a "I wonder if He was really the telling the truth, let me ask one of the saints". They instead chose to believe those lying Pharisees story of how the disciples stole the body.Now fast forward 2000 years. Why we do not need that level of miracles today? Simple, we are people of faith, we read the Book, we hear the preacher, we see Benny Hinn and we believe. We don't need to see the Man(Jesus), we certainly don't need no resurrected saints.
Only a handful of people living today (who I believe are direct descendants of those first century Jews) called atheists require a sign. Need I remind them of what Jesus said?

He chose to demonstrate things that only God could do. Things that only God can do isn't a matter of standard or substandard. He did things only God can do to prove that He is God. Some did. Some believed. Same as today, people are marvelously able to rationalize away evidence for the supernatural. Some did, some didn't. We have them, in the Bible. The believers were Jews. A few hundred thousand to judge from the complete NT record. Some Jews believed, some didn't. Today some people believe, some don't. There are always more atheists than believers. We can describe the practicalities of faith all we want, it's still ultimately a supernatural gift of God.

What?!!

We know the disciples didn't believe. Yet they were the ones who lived with God and saw all the miracles He did. He told them He will be killed and be resurrected in 3 days. When He did die the earth shook violently, the sky darkened for three hours, and the saints were resurrected. These things do not accompanied the death of a mere mortals, yet the disciples did not get the "HINTS". Where the hell did Jesus find these fellas. And Thomas... God help him.... Now you'd think that Jesus post-resurrected appearances would have sown some mustard seeds faith in these dim-witted fishermen, but no, there they soon back to their nets and their old skeptical ways. Jesus (looking down the corridor of time and seeing the easy successes of Benny Hinn and Pat Robertson) must have thrown His hands in the air and scream " O God why me, what more can I do". God response was " I'll send the Holy Spirit, they need a supernatural gift". Exactly, so Jesus miracles were meant to validate that statement. All the miracles produced no faith in the disciples, it only at Pentecost when they received the "supernatural gift" that they were really given faith.Edited by honda33, : No reason given.Edited by honda33, : No reason given.

I guess you are not counted among millions of us who send
him a dollar every day. Edited by honda33, : No reason given.Edited by honda33, : No reason given.Edited by AdminPD, : Warning

If I weren't a Christian I'd stick a stake through his heart. An out and out shyster by any reckoning (or worse)But hey! That's the US for ya... Edited by iano, : No reason given.Edited by AdminPD, : Warning

Oh no. PD contributes to Benny Hinn!!{AbE: before you ban me PD, it's a gag. There is no warning about banning in your message. Just a request - which was denied in this rare instance) Edited by iano, : No reason given.Edited by AdminPD, : Warning

I don't understand what point you are trying to make. I don't think the mere facts, the miracles in particular, are enough to produce faith, as that takes supernatural intervention, but they are the material we make faith out of.The disciples did not easily put two and two together, but then neither do most of us. We rationalize away the uncanny, come up with alternate explanations, anything but recognize the unnerving implications of unusual phenomena. Happens all the time. EvC is a great place for watching how this is done.So, it takes the gift of the Holy Spirit for us or for the disciples to put it all together, but it IS nevertheless all there to BE put together.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Because prophecy would be fulifilled in this way. If you'll notice from scripture, many, if not most of Jesus' mircales only occured when the people had faith that he could do it. Like the woman who stated, "If I only I touch his cloak, I'll be healed." Or the Centurian who said, "If only you say the word and my servant will be healed." By contrast, the gospels are replete with instances of Jesus not doing many miracles in certain provinces. The number one reason? "And Jesus didn't perfrom very many miracles there because of their unbelief."I've never seen a miracle, at least not in the classical sense, yet I still believe. Nothing is invalidated. What won't be invalidated is the excuse on that Day when you say you needed 'evidence,' only to hear the Words, "I tell you the Truth, I never knew you. Away from you evildoer."

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"There is not in all America a more dangerous trait than the deification of mere smartness unaccompanied by any sense of moral responsibility." -Theodore Roosevelt

This is known as the placebo effect.

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Compassionate conservatism - bringing you a kinder, gentler torture chamber

Amazing is it?Lets see what was two and two for the disciplesThey saw water turned into wine
They saw a man walking on water
They saw a man calmed Katrina by simply asking her to be still
They saw five thousand fed by five loaves and two fishes
The saw even saw Moses and Elijah on the hill
They saw the raising of Lazarus
The witnessed countless healing.
Jesus told His disciples that His enemies will kill Him. They did. His death was followed by a number of out of this world events. He was resurrected 3 days after, just as He said. They say Him and He showed them the nail holes in His hands. None of these events produced any faith in the disciples.The point I am making is that to believe that this story is remotely plausible, that the disciples could not easily put two and two together, requires faith beyond the natural.
Further, since this unmatched level of evidence produced no faith in the disciples, one can conclude that the purpose of these miracles was not to generate faith but show conclusively that faith is a supernatural gift. That's not true, most of us are not that way. We never question the Bible or what the our pastors tell us. We need no miracles to produce faith. The disciples on the the other hand are another breed, they make the skeptics here at EVC look like a gullible lot.

"We have seen the Lord." But he said to them, "Unless I see the mark of the nails in his hands and put my finger into the nailmarks and put my hand into his side, I will not believe." Now a week later his disciples were again inside and Thomas was with them. Jesus came, although the doors were locked, and stood in their midst and said, "Peace be with you."

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Then he said to Thomas, "Put your finger here and see my hands, and bring your hand and put it into my side, and do not be unbelieving, but believe." Thomas answered and said to him, "My Lord and my God!"

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Jesus said to him, "Have you come to believe because you have seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen and have believed." -John 20:25-29

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"There is not in all America a more dangerous trait than the deification of mere smartness unaccompanied by any sense of moral responsibility." -Theodore Roosevelt

But they did believe he was the Messiah, and the miracles would have been God's authentication of that fact, just not that he was God himself, isn't that so? What a lot of the cults believe. But then with his death everything was thrown into doubt, because death wasn't in the equation for them. Well, it did do that, but as John says at the end of his gospel, these things were written "that you might believe." They had all the facts for review, and to become the substance of their preaching. Well, I disagree but this won't go anywhere so I'm going to drop it.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.