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Author Topic:   Jesus's motives for performing miracles.
honda33
Member (Idle past 5162 days)
Posts: 51
From: Antigua
Joined: 04-11-2006


Message 46 of 69 (358167)
10-22-2006 4:59 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by Faith
10-22-2006 11:55 AM


But they did believe he was the Messiah, and the miracles would have been God's authentication of that fact, just not that he was God himself, isn't that so? What a lot of the cults believe. But then with his death everything was thrown into doubt, because death wasn't in the equation for them.
What the the disciples had that no other cult has is the real Mccoy. This is no Benny Hinn, Jim Jones or David Koresh. This is the the creator of the universe performing miracles that only the creator can. The point is that people latch on and believe every word that falls from these cult leaders lying lips. These quacks obviously could not perform any miracles, yet if Benny Hinn tells his followers that the government is going to kill him, they will believe him. If he tells them he will rise on the third day they all be there waiting for him. They need no earthquake, no 3 hour eclipse, and no resurrected saints. So why didn't these spectacular events impressed the disciples?
Lets go back in time. On that first Good Friday . The disciples got the news that their beloved leader is going to be crucified. The disciples are hiding like scared chicken yet none remembered the 37 plus spectacular miracles Jesus performed. A couple of Roman soldiers could be no match for the Son of God. Jesus could just do one of His disappearing acts. Jesus was crucified - but this was no ordinary crucifixion - OK the earthquake could have been a coincidence, but the three hour eclipse!. Then to top it off we had resurrected saints! Now this is not something you see every day. Yet no disciple believed what Jesus told them He was going to Jerusalem to do. This is an unbelievable story that requires supernatural faith to believe.
I will say that the miracles were not for the people who saw them. They were meant for the people who didn't.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by Faith, posted 10-22-2006 11:55 AM Faith has not replied

  
Larni
Member (Idle past 164 days)
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 47 of 69 (358272)
10-23-2006 8:45 AM
Reply to: Message 41 by Hyroglyphx
10-22-2006 10:57 AM


Re: Motivations
nemesis_juggernaut writes:
"And Jesus didn't perfrom very many miracles there because of their unbelief."
Is it then fair to say that there has to be belief for a miracle to occure and that the divine relies on the 'belief quotient' before it can actuate miracles?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by Hyroglyphx, posted 10-22-2006 10:57 AM Hyroglyphx has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 48 by b b, posted 10-24-2006 2:33 AM Larni has replied

  
b b
Member (Idle past 6131 days)
Posts: 77
From: baton rouge, La, usa
Joined: 09-25-2005


Message 48 of 69 (358456)
10-24-2006 2:33 AM
Reply to: Message 47 by Larni
10-23-2006 8:45 AM


Re: Motivations
larni writes:
"Is it then fair to say that there has to be belief for a miracle to occure and that the divine relies on the 'belief quotient' before it can actuate miracles?"
Yes. All things are possible to him that believe. Faith the size of a mustard seed will move mountains. The bible never really stops stressing the importance of faith. Faith is nothing more than the measure of how much you believe in what ever you believe. I believe that the person being healed's faith is important but also the faith of the healer. In Jesus's case, I believe his faith was so high that if he spoke it, it happened whether or not the "healee" (person being healed. lol) believed it or not.
I don't claim to have all the answers, as some on this site do, but I believe that Jesus's one and only motive for performing miracles
was obeying orders from his father. Satan tempted Jesus to perform vain miracles and he refused saying don't tempt God. That would lead me to believe that miracles were not done through his own will,but through the will of.... you guessed it.... God. I also believe that the purpose of alot of his miracles were to simply show us (us is a nice way of saying ya'll) "non-belivers" or "unfaithful" the power we posses because of God. When he did miracles he told us we can also do these things if we believe. Of Course Man is so arrogant that we(again not including myself) feel if nobody walked on water yet that it's not possible. So we had to be shown a little bit(through Jesus) to see if we would believe the rest. Well.... do ya? I will admit I'm still trying to bend a spoon; but I will not give up.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by Larni, posted 10-23-2006 8:45 AM Larni has replied

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Larni
Member (Idle past 164 days)
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 49 of 69 (358466)
10-24-2006 6:13 AM
Reply to: Message 48 by b b
10-24-2006 2:33 AM


Re: Motivations
b b writes:
Faith the size of a mustard seed will move mountains.
Does it have to be faith in Jesus or your god to get the job done or is faith (directed towards which ever god) sufficient to perform a miracle?
If Jesus did do the miracles (here I assume he did), did he need faith or was it chanelled directly from your god. Was it faith doing it or certainty?
This is my point.
The miracles are a point of certainty.
Why were they needed if faith was such a metaphysical reality?

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iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 50 of 69 (358467)
10-24-2006 6:20 AM
Reply to: Message 49 by Larni
10-24-2006 6:13 AM


Re: Motivations
The miracles are a point of certainty.
Miracles are not a point of certainty. Many did not believe. A miracle is evidence of a sort. Only a person who is given the (spiritual) eyes to see the miracle for what it is will take out of it what the miracle is attempting to prove.
If no spiritual sight then the miricle simply cannot be seen for what it is

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Archer Opteryx
Member (Idle past 3598 days)
Posts: 1811
From: East Asia
Joined: 08-16-2006


Message 51 of 69 (358696)
10-25-2006 4:06 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Larni
10-20-2006 9:23 AM


Yeshua the Healer
Larni:
What was the motive of Jesus in doing his miracles?
The earliest accounts of Yeshua emphasize his gifts as a healer, storyteller and teacher. A sincere desire to heal strikes me as the most credible motive.
A later generation made the miracles about demonstrations of an icon's divinity rather than expressions of a healer's compassion. The shift reflects a more polarized age when a Christian identity separate from that of Judaism was emerging.
Fundamentalists repeat the shift today. They do it for the same reason: they view the universe in polarized terms and use the miracle stories as one more wedge tool to separate themselves from others. It's hard to drive wedges and talk about healing at the same time, so they push the latter subject into the background. The miracle stories become one more means to force the ultimatum: Sign onto our contract or else.
Do his miracles invalidate faith in xians because they give what many here at EVC have long asked for: evidence?
Christians of a fundamentalist mindset like to think of the miracles as physical evidence. In reality their position makes the stories superfluous. Their position is self-negating. In the progress of this thread you can follow its path off the cliff.
1. First it is said that the miracles demonstrate Christ's power. They represent physical evidence in support of a proposition. The question is then raised as to why, if physical evidence of this kind matters so much, we don't see the same thing today.
2. Then it is said that an ancient written account of a miracle is supposed to be just as convincing as seeing the thing in person. Now obviously these two cannot be the same thing, regardless of the funamentalists' efforts to sweep the distinction under the rug. Hearsay is not the same thing as firsthand experience. Everyone knows this. Fundamentalist Christians would spot the difference at once if you offered the same 'evidence' for, say, the ascension of Mohammed.
3. Then it is said that, if ancient narratives by unknown authors do not seem convincing enough to you, it is because these accounts will only be convincing to a person 'of good heart' who is 'inclined to believe.' By that they do not really mean a person of good heart or a person inclined to believe, as many people in both categories do not view the Gospel narratives this way. They mean a person who is likely to suspend disbelief at the same points where they have been trained to suspend their own disbelief. Now the miracle stories become superfluous. A mind inclined to join their sect will join it and a mind not inclined to join it will not; the result is foreordained. No need exists for the miracle stories in the first place.
Mature Christians, in my experience, take the miracle stories more as demonstrations of the importance of bringing healing. In the Synoptic narratives Yeshua regularly states that the only valid expression of love for God is through active compassion for others. As this is what he says, this is what he does.
__
Edited by Archer Opterix, : Clarity.
Edited by Archer Opterix, : Typo repair.

Archer
All species are transitional.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Larni, posted 10-20-2006 9:23 AM Larni has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 52 by iano, posted 10-25-2006 5:18 AM Archer Opteryx has replied
 Message 55 by Larni, posted 10-25-2006 7:49 AM Archer Opteryx has not replied
 Message 62 by honda33, posted 10-25-2006 6:16 PM Archer Opteryx has not replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 52 of 69 (358701)
10-25-2006 5:18 AM
Reply to: Message 51 by Archer Opteryx
10-25-2006 4:06 AM


Re: Yeshua the Healer
A later generation made the miracles about demonstrations of an icon's divinity rather than expressions of a healer's compassion. The shift reflects a more polarized age when a Christian identity separate from that of Judaism was emerging.
From the gospel of John. John the apostle that is. Same generation as Jesus
quote:
22Then came the Feast of Dedication at Jerusalem. It was winter, 23and Jesus was in the temple area walking in Solomon's Colonnade. 24The Jews gathered around him, saying, "How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Christ, tell us plainly."
25Jesus answered, "I did tell you, but you do not believe. The miracles I do in my Father's name speak for me,
I think the aim of the miracles is made quite plain by Jesus. As is the fact that miracles ain't the be all and end all when it comes to belief.
Edited by iano, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by Archer Opteryx, posted 10-25-2006 4:06 AM Archer Opteryx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 53 by Archer Opteryx, posted 10-25-2006 6:30 AM iano has replied

  
Archer Opteryx
Member (Idle past 3598 days)
Posts: 1811
From: East Asia
Joined: 08-16-2006


Message 53 of 69 (358705)
10-25-2006 6:30 AM
Reply to: Message 52 by iano
10-25-2006 5:18 AM


Re: Yeshua the Healer
Thank you for that quote from the Gospel of John. It provides an excellent example of the kind of generation shift I am talking about.
If you look at the earliest Gospel accounts written (Mark) and go the latest (John) the fault line becomes evident. John differs from the three earlier Gospels in profound ways and presents a very different portrait of Jesus.
To read the Gospel of John you would never know of a Jesus who told parables, gave a Sermon on the Mount, equated 'laying up treasures in heaven' with generosity and compassion here on earth, or deflected homage directed at him onto his heavenly Father or onto the poor. John's Jesus shows little interest in telling stories or helping the poor. John's Jesus talks about himself a lot and makes statements that divide his audience according to their willingness to ascribe divinity to him. He churns out metaphors about himself--the light, the life, the resurrection, the gate, the way, the sheep, the shepherd, the vine. John's Gospel has a sylopsistic quality. In the other Gospels Jesus brings a message; in John, Jesus is the message.
Tellingly, John's is the only Gospel to speak of Jesus and his disciples as something apart from, and suffering at the hands of, 'the Jews.' (The other Gospels talk of Pharisees or teachers of the law.) John's is the only Gospel where Jesus speaks of his followers being 'thrown out of the synagogues.' Jesus speaks of love in John, but it's the love of disciples for one another or the love of God for the world in sending Jesus. One finds no mention here, as one does in the other Gospels, of people expressing love for God and Jewish law through generosity toward others--regardless of those others' beliefs about Christ or even their general morality.
Scholars date the writing of the Gospel of John at around 90 ACE. And if you regard the author as John the disciple (the Gospel does not overtly state this, but implies it), you are still left with the early Christian legend that John lived to be 100. The date of 90 ACE doesn't change.
The Gospel of John, written half a century after the crucifixion and a generation after the destruction of Jerusalem, reflects very different situations than Jesus knew in his lifetime. By now a separate religious identity called 'Christianity' had emerged. The new religion included Gentiles in faster growing numbers than Jews. It was eager, under watchful Roman eyes, to distinguish itself from Judaism, by now associated with an impressively quashed anti-Roman rebellion.
Earlier documents present a different picture. Mark, dated around 60-70 ACE, is probably the only Gospel penned before the destruction of Jerusalem. A few examples of the way Mark tells it:
quote:
As he went ashore, he saw a great crowd; and he had compassion for them, because they were like sheep without a shepherd; and he began to teach them many things. (Mark 6.34)
”I have compassion for the crowd, because they have been with me now for three days and have nothing to eat.' (Mark 8.2)
A simple concordance search of the Gospel texts shows the other two Synoptic writers following Mark in mentioning compassion as a motive:
quote:
When he saw the crowds, he had compassion for them, because they were harassed and helpless, like sheep without a shepherd. (Mt 9.36)
When he went ashore, he saw a great crowd; and he had compassion for them and cured their sick. (Mt 14.14)
Then Jesus called his disciples to him and said, ”I have compassion for the crowd, because they have been with me now for three days and have nothing to eat; and I do not want to send them away hungry, for they might faint on the way.’ (Mt 15.32)
Moved with compassion, Jesus touched their eyes. Immediately they regained their sight and followed him. (Mt 20.34)
When the Lord saw her, he had compassion for her and said to her, ”Do not weep.’ (Lk 7.13)
But is there any mention of 'compassion' in John? No.
By then, the story is as you quote it:
quote:
'...If you are the Christ, tell us plainly.' Jesus answered, 'I did tell you, but you do not believe. The miracles I do in my Father's name speak for me...
_
Edited by Archer Opterix, : Quote.

Archer
All species are transitional.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by iano, posted 10-25-2006 5:18 AM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 54 by iano, posted 10-25-2006 7:29 AM Archer Opteryx has replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 54 of 69 (358710)
10-25-2006 7:29 AM
Reply to: Message 53 by Archer Opteryx
10-25-2006 6:30 AM


Re: Yeshua the Healer
If you look at the earliest Gospel accounts written (Mark) and go the latest (John) the fault line becomes evident. John differs from the three earlier Gospels in profound ways and presents a very different portrait of Jesus.
A portraits purpose is to provide a representation of someone. If the purpose of one portrait is to present one aspect of a person and another another then so what? You call it a "generation shift" and a "fault line". I call it stereoscopic vision.
in John, Jesus is the message.
Well spotted. A look at the man from another (a not altogether insignificant angle).
One finds no mention here, as one does in the other Gospels, of people expressing love for God and Jewish law through generosity toward others--regardless of those others' beliefs about Christ or even their general morality.
In the synoptics, one also finds Jesus commanding people as to what they should do. No "trying to do" invoked. Only do. Command-language. And he tells them what happens to people who do not do as he says. If someone has grasped this by the time they get to John they will be in dire need of relief. If no John then no way out of the dilema of not being able to do as they have been told.
Its "Do unto others" not "try to do unto others". A soft, mushy moral teacher-Jesus? Hardly.
Scholars date the writing of the Gospel of John at around 90 ACE. And if you regard the author as John the disciple (the Gospel does not overtly state this, but implies it), you are still left with the early Christian legend that John lived to be 100. The date of 90 ACE doesn't change.
I think both you and I know that this area is one over which there is much debate. Not a strong point.
But is there any mention of 'compassion' in John? No.
I don't see that having compassion and demonstrating divinity must clash. Reading all 4 gospels you are left concluding a compassionate God. As well as a wrathful against sin one. Mission accomplished to my mind
Besides, if Johns gospels purpose is to attentuate Christs divinity then that is the job at hand is it not? There are the other gospels to speak of his compassion.
Edited by iano, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by Archer Opteryx, posted 10-25-2006 6:30 AM Archer Opteryx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 56 by Legend, posted 10-25-2006 8:10 AM iano has replied
 Message 59 by Archer Opteryx, posted 10-25-2006 9:20 AM iano has replied

  
Larni
Member (Idle past 164 days)
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 55 of 69 (358715)
10-25-2006 7:49 AM
Reply to: Message 51 by Archer Opteryx
10-25-2006 4:06 AM


Re: Yeshua the Healer
Archer writes:
They mean a person who is likely to suspend disbelief at the same points where they have been trained to suspend their own disbelief.
Damn good point, that man.
Archer writes:
No need exists for the miracle stories in the first place.
My thoughts exactly. This leads me to believe that Jesus had a personal motive for doing what he did.
Archer writes:
In the Synoptic narratives Yeshua regularly states that the only valid expression of love for God is through active compassion for others. As this is what he says, this is what he does.
Could one then say that Jesus performed the miracles to 'lead by example'?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by Archer Opteryx, posted 10-25-2006 4:06 AM Archer Opteryx has not replied

  
Legend
Member (Idle past 5006 days)
Posts: 1226
From: Wales, UK
Joined: 05-07-2004


Message 56 of 69 (358719)
10-25-2006 8:10 AM
Reply to: Message 54 by iano
10-25-2006 7:29 AM


Re: Yeshua the Healer
iano writes:
If the purpose of one portrait is to present one aspect of a person and another another then so what? You call it a "generation shift" and a "fault line". I call it stereoscopic vision.
if you saw a portrait of Tom and a portrait of Harry side-by-side would you call it a steresocopic vision of Tom? or a steresocopic vision of Harry ?
the synoptics portray Tom, John's gospel portrays Harry (Tom's mystical, hellenistic brother).

"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by iano, posted 10-25-2006 7:29 AM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 57 by iano, posted 10-25-2006 8:31 AM Legend has replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 57 of 69 (358721)
10-25-2006 8:31 AM
Reply to: Message 56 by Legend
10-25-2006 8:10 AM


Re: Yeshua the Healer
The contention seems to be that the compassionate Jesus of the synoptics is absent in John. You are aware of the shortest verse in the Bible and in which gospel it is contained?
John 11:35 writes:
Jesus wept
Its an interesting miracle, the raising of Lazurus from the dead. We have the compassion of Jesus side by side with this statement regarding his motivation.
John 11 writes:
41"Father, I thank you that you have heard me. 42I knew that you always hear me, but I said this for the benefit of the people standing here, that they may believe that you sent me."
43When he had said this, Jesus called in a loud voice, "Lazarus, come out!" 44The dead man came out, his hands and feet wrapped with strips of linen, and a cloth around his face.
Edited by iano, : No reason given.
Edited by iano, : No reason given.

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 Message 56 by Legend, posted 10-25-2006 8:10 AM Legend has replied

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Legend
Member (Idle past 5006 days)
Posts: 1226
From: Wales, UK
Joined: 05-07-2004


Message 58 of 69 (358726)
10-25-2006 9:13 AM
Reply to: Message 57 by iano
10-25-2006 8:31 AM


Re: Yeshua the Healer
iano writes:
The contention seems to be that the compassionate Jesus of the synoptics is absent in John. You are aware of the shortest verse in the Bible and in which gospel it is contained?
John 11:35 writes:
Jesus wept
Reading the verses above that one, it seems that an equally valid reason for his weeping was guilt, rather than compassion.
Besides, I'm not purporting compassion to be totally asbent from John's Jesus, instead that in John it's just a sidenote, a minor quirk, while in the synoptics it's the main focus of Jesus's life and teachings.

"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by iano, posted 10-25-2006 8:31 AM iano has not replied

  
Archer Opteryx
Member (Idle past 3598 days)
Posts: 1811
From: East Asia
Joined: 08-16-2006


Message 59 of 69 (358727)
10-25-2006 9:20 AM
Reply to: Message 54 by iano
10-25-2006 7:29 AM


Re: Yeshua the Healer
iano:
Its "Do unto others" not "try to do unto others". A soft, mushy moral teacher-Jesus? Hardly.
Who said the teacher depicted in the Synoptics is a soft, mushy character? You never heard it from me.
As an argument this is vintage strawman. It makes sense as a response only if one equates action to alleviate human suffering with 'soft, mushy' moral character.
This is not a prejudice I hold.
Given the number of fundamentalists we see whose ears perk up when the subject turns to end-time fantasies, and whose eyes glaze over when the subject turns to ending world hunger, I'd say compassionate action is a quality made of stern stuff indeed. Why else would so many professed followers of Jesus shrink from a demand he hammered on?
quote:
Then someone came to [Jesus] and said, ”Teacher, what good deed must I do to have eternal life?’
And he said to him, ”Why do you ask me about what is good? There is only one who is good. If you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments.’
He said to him, ”Which ones?’
And Jesus said, ”You shall not murder; You shall not commit adultery; You shall not steal; You shall not bear false witness; Honour your father and mother; also, You shall love your neighbour as yourself.’
The young man said to him, ”I have kept all these; what do I still lack?’
Jesus said to him, ”If you wish to be perfect, go, sell your possessions, and give the money to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; then come, follow me.’
When the young man heard this word, he went away grieving, for he had many possessions.
-- Matthew 19.16-26 (NRSV)
_
Edited by Archer Opterix, : Quote format.
Edited by Archer Opterix, : Added version note.

Archer
All species are transitional.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by iano, posted 10-25-2006 7:29 AM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 60 by iano, posted 10-25-2006 9:42 AM Archer Opteryx has replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 60 of 69 (358734)
10-25-2006 9:42 AM
Reply to: Message 59 by Archer Opteryx
10-25-2006 9:20 AM


Re: Yeshua the Healer
Strip away his divinity and that's all your left with. A great moral, compassionate teacher. Compared to what he is you are left with mush. John prevents that - unless you can find some way (which you seem to have done to your own satisfaction) of dismissing the Jesus of John (and the epistles).
Given the number of fundamentalists we see whose ears perk up when the subject turns to end-time fantasies, and whose eyes glaze over when the subject turns to ending world hunger, I'd say compassionate action is a quality made of stern stuff indeed. Why else would so many professed followers of Jesus shrink from a demand he hammered on?
Why? Because they don't rip out half the pages in their Bible in order to create a god in their own image and likeness. Neither is it the either/or which you seem to suggest - a straw man of your own making.
Your error is to suppose that Jesus instructions have the one dimensional purpose of exhorting mankind to the humanistic endeavor of on and ever upwards. His commands are "do or else". And man cannot do. He can only try to do. Which is not what Jesus commanded.
The story of the rich young ruler is a case in point. He could not do as Jesus commanded. He could only do some of what Jesus commanded. Same as us all.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 59 by Archer Opteryx, posted 10-25-2006 9:20 AM Archer Opteryx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 61 by Archer Opteryx, posted 10-25-2006 2:31 PM iano has replied

  
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