Faith writes:
and it gives a foundation for believing the gospel of salvation.
Larni writes:
I thought the message of the gospel (thanks Iano) was the salvation from the acceptance of ones sin and the acknowledgement of the role of Jesus in our salvation. Rather than an agreement that Jesus was divine by the evidence of miracles. Thats my point. Why miracles?
A couple of points. "Salvation from the acceptance of ones sins": I'm not sure what this means. The gospel message (some of which we have covered so far) is as follows. It gives us the bad news first:
- every man is born with the nature of being a sinner. And because he is born thus, he will sin. He will act according to nature. It is natural that he will sin
- God by nature, is holy. He hates sin. He is right to hate it. His hatred isn't bad - it is righteous
- sinners are seperated from relationship God. They are spiritually dead to God. If they die in this state they will remain in this state for eternity.
- What God does in time against sin (pours out his wrath) he will do likewise in eternity: pour out his wrath.
- This is bad news indeed for man. Even worse: man cannot do anything about it. Gods holiness demands that a man be righteous in order to have a relationship with God. A holy God cannot (by nature) have relationship with sinners.
- Man cannot make himself right with God: not by following Gods law not by anything else.
The Gospel = the Good News
The gospel message is that God (whose nature is not only wrath against sin but also love for us) has done something about this state of affairs. He has provided a way whereby this state of affairs can be rectified for everyone who ever lived or will live. Although man by nature is doomed as he is (objects in motion will continue in a straight line unless acted upon by an exterior force (God), it does not have to be this way. That is good news. Even better, this way of salvation does not rely on man contributing to his salvation as all aspects of it are carried out by God. This way (or mechanism) of salvation takes, in other words, the form of a gift. It is good that man have no part in his gaining salvation: for if it relied on him then that mechanism might not work. Whereas the gospel, being the power of God, if applied to a man is sure to work. It is not sure it will be applied - that is true, but if applied then it will work.
That's the gospel. The workings of the gospel are a subset of that. The gospel is the engine if you like, the specifics of it, how it works are the componant parts of it. They are not so much the good news themselves but how the good news works.
Faith writes:
You can't have faith unless you have evidence.
Larni writes:
I would contend that this is exactly wrong. Evidence removes the need for faith. If your god came down from it's cloud and said " look here you, I'm real" I would sure as hell believe it. Thats evidence, not faith.
We have seen in the Romans thread that what the gospel is and what what salvation is and what righteousness is are what the Bible has to say about them. We should not force our own limitations upon such words. We saw (or will see) that salvation is a multifacetted thing: a man is declared righteous, a man ceases to be an enemy of God and becomes an adopted son, a man receives eternal life. A mans sins are forgiven him. He is placed in Christ etc etc
We have seen that faith can be pictured as a highway along which God transmits the righteousness of Christ to a person. That is its first function in the sense of it acting as a highway carrying goods: the initial transaction that takes place at the point of salvation. But clearly, before anything can be sent along a highway the highway must exist!
We see all over the gospels that a man must repent in order to be saved. We might take one aspect of repentance as genuine acceptance on a mans part that he is a sinner before God. Patently he must be convinced of two things before he can do this.
- he must be convinced that God exists
- he must be convinced that he is a sinner.
Another way of saying a man must be convinced is that a man must believe these two things. For man convinced is a man who believes. We have seen from above that man takes no part in his salvation. If this is true then a man believing is not a decision a man makes out of himself. He doesn't just wake up one normal day and believe God exists and that he is a sinner before God. He doesn't suddenly get a shiver down his spine because he decides to belief that the destination of sinners is as it is. No. Any man who believes something has at least some evidence for it. A little evidence then his belief is partial, tentitive. For him to be convinced of something however means he must have compelling evidence of that thing. For a man to believe the two items above he must have evidence.
I was watching 12 Angry Men last night which illustrates the point well. A murder trial jury was sitting determining the sentence for a man accused of murdering his father. 11 of the 12 had the initial conclusion that the man was guilty. He would go to the electric chair. One man dissented and set about convincing the others that there was a reasonable doubt as to whether he did it. The 11 were swung around by only one thing. The evidence which seemed to convict the man all had holes in it. On first sight it looked iron-clad but examining it brought out the holes. They became convinced by the evidence for holes - allowing a verdict of reasonable doubt to be valid. They didn't believe the man was innocent: they believed there was room for reasonable doubt. They came to this view due to the evidence presented that there were potential holes in the concrete evidence.
So, it is not that a man makes a evidentialess decision to believe. Believing something without evidence isn't belief, it is something else. Rather it is that a man is "in a state of belief". "Unless you believe" is not saying that unless we take some action or other we are doomed. No! Read it in this way: "Unless you are in the state of believing then you cannot be saved". It is a condition that man must be in. "Unless you are in a believing condition then you cannot be saved". The locks mechanism must be in the correct state in order for the key to turn in it. Think "state of being" - not "action I must take"
quote:
Hebrews 11:1 "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen"
Faith is
substance and
evidence. In the Romans thread we have seen the initial work that God applies to all men: the call on man through conscience, nature, Gods word. All aimed at turning a man back towards God. Aimed at bringing him to the conviction that he is a sinner. We might see all that work by God as preparing the foundations on the mans side for the highway that God wants to construct between himself and man. But salvation material cannot be transmitted with no highway in place. Foundations are not sufficient. At some point that highway called faith needs to be constructed. How is this achieved? Well, the construction materials of this highway have
substance - you need substance to build things. And the nature of that substance is
evidence. The highway spans the distance that exists between man and God and when it finally bridges the gap and lands on the prepared foundations on mans side of the divide then then the very first thing that happens is that a man believes totally. Why - because the nature of the highway
itself is the very evidence a man needs to believe. And now that he has all the evidence he needs (the link between him and God has been established) he enters the state of belief. And once he enters that state of belief the condition for salvation has been satisfied. The goods involved with salvation can flow via the highway to the man. It's like an electrical circuit. First the circuit needs to be completed then the goods can flow. As with an electrical circuit the whole thing happens instantaniously. As soon as the circuit is completed, current flows.
It fits does it not? Consider:
A man is told he must repent, right? This he patently cannot do by himself. He cannot truly repent without believing. Unbelieving repentance is hollow and empty. Not heartfelt. And it is in the heart of a man this must take place
quote:
Romans 10:9 "...if you will confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved."
(nb: all the evidence required to enable this heartfelt belief in a man is enabled by that same completed highway constuction project - lest any should worry)
And a man is told to believe too, right? But he cannot believe without evidence. There is no such thing as belief without evidence. We might call such belief "wishful thinking" for that is its proper name. Or "sticking ones head in the sand". No! This belief must be heartfelt. A convinced belief.
So
God gives man the evidence required. God constructs the highway of faith (a highway whose building blocks are evidence) and connects it to the man. The man now believes. He is fully convinced that God exists and that he is a sinner before God and all the rest of it. Because heartfelt belief is a requirement for heartfelt repentance a man can now repent in heartfelt fashion. This applies to any other thing that must be done heartfeltedly. He can believe heartfeltedly that Jesus Christ is Lord for example - its no different. It doesn't matter what it is he must believe he will now do so. He can now do it from his heart because he has been convinced and fully believes. It is not a choice on the mans part. He has been connected, by God, to the evidence - belief is as automatic as is current flowing in a completed circuit. And Goddidit.
We may well say then that there are conditions that must be fulfilled in order that a man be saved. This is true. But how often do we hear the works-based-salvationists say that "
we must fulfill those conditions"? How gravely mistaken they are. Yes, we must indeed fulfill conditions: we must believe/repent/confess etc. But only in the passive sense. God is the one who takes all the actions that ensures a man fulfills those conditions. Yes, a child who plays the drums is playing the drums. But if his parent is the one holding his hands around the drumsticks and is moving the childs arms so as to beat the drums then we can see who it is who is actually playing the drums on the childs behalf. God does this simply and only because man is unable to fulfill those conditions himself. God does this because he loves man and he does it in this way because God is just. In saving a man the way he does, he doesn't break his own "rules". His rules being simply expressions of who he is. He acts consistant with who he is.
Faith is evidence. It enables salvation because it enables a man to believe: a condition of salvation. And subsequent to that point in time it does other things in like fashion. It enables a believer to trust God implicitly for instance. For having seen once what God has done one tends not to distrust him in their heart again. Sure there can be rough times, there can be doubt - even severe doubt brought about by tough times. But he is very gracious and always willing to rebuild damage caused to that bridge that was once built. He is always ready and willing to touch a person with faith again: to restore their confidence in him. He promises that no matter what happens that highway will never be destroyed. The connection between God and man, once established will last forever. He doesn't break his promises either
quote:
Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
Quite...
Edited by iano, : No reason given.
Edited by iano, : No reason given.
Edited by iano, : No reason given.
Edited by iano, : No reason given.
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