Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
5 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,817 Year: 3,074/9,624 Month: 919/1,588 Week: 102/223 Day: 13/17 Hour: 0/1


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   The consequences of an intelligent designer
Taz
Member (Idle past 3291 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 16 of 53 (358956)
10-26-2006 9:26 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by mike the wiz
10-24-2006 4:33 PM


mike the wiz writes:
That perception can so easily be done away with, if God sees all life as morally inferior because it will do anything for it's survival.
This line of thinking reduces god down to a complete jerk. Allow me to make an anology and show you why.
I was born into an affluent society. I have a house, a wife, and 2 wonderful children... dogs I mean. I've been fortunate enough to be able to afford a classy baby grand piano (I do play). You could say that I never have to worry about getting food or clean water.
One day, I decide to take a trip to Haiti where about 70% of the population are unemployed. Most people there have a daily life struggle of getting food and clean water for the family. I go there and see children playing in shit, fathers and mothers lowering themselves to almost beggars just to keep the family alive, and children beggars fight each other for what little charity they can get. I decide to make myself feel big and toss a few of U.S. dollars in coins on the ground and watch the people pick them up. "Wow," I tell myself, "these people are pathetic and morally inferior because they lower themselves and fight each other for survival."
Mike, you've reduced god down to a self righteous son of a bitch just like the possible me in Haiti. What the hell do I know about day to day struggle to keep my children from starving? And if god is what you've just described, what the hell does god know about having to struggle to live? It, after all, is immortal and omnipotent.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by mike the wiz, posted 10-24-2006 4:33 PM mike the wiz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by mike the wiz, posted 10-26-2006 9:50 AM Taz has replied
 Message 35 by RAZD, posted 10-26-2006 7:11 PM Taz has not replied

  
Taz
Member (Idle past 3291 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 18 of 53 (358966)
10-26-2006 10:07 AM
Reply to: Message 17 by mike the wiz
10-26-2006 9:50 AM


Re: Hi Gasb
mike writes:
It's like when people get through something and survive for weeks without food and they're injured etc.. at that present time, the person cannot see past that moment of hurt. God can.
God can? So, what does god propose we do? Should all organisms stop eating each other and starve to death just so god would stop looking down on it? Like I said, what the hell does an omnipotent being know about survival and suffering? What the hell do I know about survival and suffering? If god see life as immoral and look down on us, then it has not empathy.
Which, by the way, touches on the definition of evil that I've accepted for a while now. People have different definitions for evil because it is a purely subjective term. I see evil as having lack of empathy.
Think! Logically, from God's perspective, there are only two good outcomes.
1. The person dies and goes to paradise
2. The person lives.
Mike, whether you know it or not, you've moved the goal post. We were talking about life in general, not people in specific.
In the case of staring children - they have bad lives. This is why God says, "THEIRS is the kingdom of heaven". But fair enough Gasby, if you don't want them to have paradise after that shit life, then fair enough.
Mike, you've unintentionally revealed that at least some part of you don't care about these "staring" children (they're staring at you right now). After all, why care if they're going to paradise after all this shit?
People who profess to not know whether there is an afterlife and/or there's paradise to be found AND care for humanity will try to change the world for the better. It appears that people who use paradise as an excuse to not care for their fellow men... well you be the judge.
You have to understand that I have had many deep intellectual thoughts about the whole picture, because these questions cause my own faith to have trouble.
I know. Someone on this forum has talked to me about you and pointed me to your old posts. I am quite astonished to see how far you've come, from believing in a magical world with tooth fairies and santa clause (I'm exaggerating) to... a magical world with non-magical creatures.
While these questions made you question your magical worldview, they caused me to lose my faith overall.
You're quite right to mention the individual organism. The IO is a victim of it's own selfish genes. That is, the individual starves because in the past, cruel selfish survival of species at al costs, led to that consequent.
Now you're just putting words in my mouth. I never said anything about individual organism. I never said anything about the selfish genes. I never even talked about survival of species at all costs in this topic.
All I've said is life's a bitch to some, and unless you've experienced it first hand please don't pass your moral judgement on others. It makes you look like an ass.
Added by edit.
Think! Logically, from God's perspective, there are only two good outcomes.
1. The person dies and goes to paradise
2. The person lives.
Haha, logical indeed, considering you just committed the existential fallacy.
Think! Logically, from Gandalf's perspective, there are only two good outcomes.
1. The Ring that controls all rings must be destroyed.
2. Sauron's forces must be subdued for all times.
Edited by gasby, : No reason given.

Place yourself on the map at http://www.frappr.com/evc
The thread about this map can be found here.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by mike the wiz, posted 10-26-2006 9:50 AM mike the wiz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by mike the wiz, posted 10-26-2006 10:23 AM Taz has replied

  
Taz
Member (Idle past 3291 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 20 of 53 (358990)
10-26-2006 11:18 AM
Reply to: Message 19 by mike the wiz
10-26-2006 10:23 AM


Re: Hi Gasb
mike writes:
That's my only point. God is not obliged to act on behalf of us, because in this present system, we are animals.
It's not that God looks down on us, it's just that his is omni-benevolent. he has empathy with us, I believe, and can answer prayer.
That's not what you said that sparked this little dual.
You said...
quote:
It depends on the premise set down. That perception can so easily be done away with, if God sees all life as morally inferior because it will do anything for it's survival. God could then have mercy, but all obligations you think God has, would mean nothing at all, logically.
I wasn't talking about the second part. I was talking about the underlined part, the part where you made god out to be an unempathetic jerk.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by mike the wiz, posted 10-26-2006 10:23 AM mike the wiz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by mike the wiz, posted 10-26-2006 11:58 AM Taz has replied

  
Taz
Member (Idle past 3291 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 25 of 53 (359024)
10-26-2006 12:52 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by mike the wiz
10-26-2006 11:58 AM


Re: Hi Gasb
mike the wiz writes:
God sees life as morally inferior to him because it is. This doesn't mean he's a jerk, because he still died on the cross for lifeforms. It means his will overrides the flesh, and he does spiritual things not fleshly things. Your flesh tells you in impatience, and ignorance of God, that he is wrong. My spirit, in patience, tells me not to judge God based on emotion.
Yeah... and all people in england are jerks because they are... see, I can make bare assertions just as well as you can.
But the point is would you suggest that all life just lay down and die just so it could be morally right, according to god?
The Nt can tell you more about the nature of God. Patience, CHARITY, etc.
Ok, tell me where in the NT it tells us how a lion can stop eating their preys and still live? Hang on, is there a paradise for crocs?
I'm not saying you're wrong. Perhaps God doesn't exist because of suffering.
What on earth are you talking about? I haven't blamed god for human suffering once in this thread.
But you have to apreciate that my belief system incorporates a whole ideology with a whole different set of premisses than other peoples'.
Actually, no, I let you have your belief system because it's your right, but I don't appreciate it, especially of all the misspellings I've seen so far. And who says brits have better english than us rednecks?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by mike the wiz, posted 10-26-2006 11:58 AM mike the wiz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by mike the wiz, posted 10-26-2006 1:08 PM Taz has not replied

  
Taz
Member (Idle past 3291 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 26 of 53 (359026)
10-26-2006 12:56 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by mike the wiz
10-26-2006 12:17 PM


Re: Not flying mike
mike the wiz writes:
Would you agree with Gasby that God is ajerk, then?
(1) You have some kind of "you're either with me or against me" complex going on.
(2) Please reread my posts. I never said god is a jerk. I said you make god out to be a jerk.
(3) Trust me, jar and I have very different philosophical, political, and theological views.
(4) How can I say god is a jerk when I don't even believe it exists?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by mike the wiz, posted 10-26-2006 12:17 PM mike the wiz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by mike the wiz, posted 10-26-2006 1:17 PM Taz has not replied

  
Taz
Member (Idle past 3291 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 28 of 53 (359029)
10-26-2006 1:02 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by mike the wiz
10-26-2006 12:58 PM


Re: Not flying mike
Please stop putting words in my mouth. I've never said any of those things.
Until you stop misrepresenting what I said, this is my last response to you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by mike the wiz, posted 10-26-2006 12:58 PM mike the wiz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by mike the wiz, posted 10-26-2006 1:18 PM Taz has not replied
 Message 32 by mike the wiz, posted 10-26-2006 1:31 PM Taz has replied

  
Taz
Member (Idle past 3291 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 33 of 53 (359052)
10-26-2006 2:36 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by mike the wiz
10-26-2006 1:31 PM


Re: Not flying mike
How can I hold a grudge against someone that doesn't exist?
....
Ok, bad joke. But no, I don't hold grudges. All I'm going to do is change your shoutout statement on your pin on the EvC map.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by mike the wiz, posted 10-26-2006 1:31 PM mike the wiz has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024