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Author Topic:   The consequences of an intelligent designer
Taz
Member (Idle past 1456 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 16 of 53 (358956)
10-26-2006 9:26 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by mike the wiz
10-24-2006 4:33 PM


mike the wiz writes:

That perception can so easily be done away with, if God sees all life as morally inferior because it will do anything for it's survival.


This line of thinking reduces god down to a complete jerk. Allow me to make an anology and show you why.

I was born into an affluent society. I have a house, a wife, and 2 wonderful children... dogs I mean. I've been fortunate enough to be able to afford a classy baby grand piano (I do play). You could say that I never have to worry about getting food or clean water.

One day, I decide to take a trip to Haiti where about 70% of the population are unemployed. Most people there have a daily life struggle of getting food and clean water for the family. I go there and see children playing in shit, fathers and mothers lowering themselves to almost beggars just to keep the family alive, and children beggars fight each other for what little charity they can get. I decide to make myself feel big and toss a few of U.S. dollars in coins on the ground and watch the people pick them up. "Wow," I tell myself, "these people are pathetic and morally inferior because they lower themselves and fight each other for survival."

Mike, you've reduced god down to a self righteous son of a bitch just like the possible me in Haiti. What the hell do I know about day to day struggle to keep my children from starving? And if god is what you've just described, what the hell does god know about having to struggle to live? It, after all, is immortal and omnipotent.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by mike the wiz, posted 10-24-2006 4:33 PM mike the wiz has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by mike the wiz, posted 10-26-2006 9:50 AM Taz has responded
 Message 35 by RAZD, posted 10-26-2006 7:11 PM Taz has not yet responded

  
mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4656
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 17 of 53 (358962)
10-26-2006 9:50 AM
Reply to: Message 16 by Taz
10-26-2006 9:26 AM


Hi Gasb
Mike, you've reduced god down to a self righteous son of a bitch just like the possible me in Haiti. What the hell do I know about day to day struggle to keep my children from starving? And if god is what you've just described, what the hell does god know about having to struggle to live?

You have to understand that I have had many deep intellectual thoughts about the whole picture, because these questions cause my own faith to have trouble.

You're quite right to mention the individual organism. The IO is a victim of it's own selfish genes. That is, the individual starves because in the past, cruel selfish survival of species at al costs, led to that consequent.

What does this mean? It means that the causing factor is evolution. I have been told so many times that evolution is cruel. I agree. I've been told so many times that evolution is random and can happen without God. I agree.

My belief is that God has nothing to do with evolution and animals. He didn't force them to eat eachother in the beginning.

All this means, objectively, and technically (and COLDLY), is that logically, God isn't to blame. Logically, the causing factor is evolution. This is why I detest the name "evolutionist", because it implies that I favour something abhorrent.

In my theology, God isn't in the nature of species. He is in the spirit of man. My beliefs hold that Christ proved this, because he rebuked and denied himself the nature of the flesh and it's selfish mysteries.

But you forget that I said that God can answer the request of the individual, to override the system in place. I believe this is so, but cannot prove it.

This line of thinking reduces god down to a complete jerk

That's your own way of seeing it. From God's perspective, that of eternal standpoint, all is not lost no matter how bad it seems to us.

It's like when people get through something and survive for weeks without food and they're injured etc.. at that present time, the person cannot see past that moment of hurt. God can.

Think! Logically, from God's perspective, there are only two good outcomes.
1. The person dies and goes to paradise
2. The person lives.

In the case of staring children - they have bad lives. This is why God says, "THEIRS is the kingdom of heaven". But fair enough Gasby, if you don't believe they go to paradise after that shit life, then fair enough. Fair enough if you think it was all for nothing.

Edited by mike the wiz, : No reason given.

Edited by mike the wiz, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by Taz, posted 10-26-2006 9:26 AM Taz has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by Taz, posted 10-26-2006 10:07 AM mike the wiz has responded

  
Taz
Member (Idle past 1456 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 18 of 53 (358966)
10-26-2006 10:07 AM
Reply to: Message 17 by mike the wiz
10-26-2006 9:50 AM


Re: Hi Gasb
mike writes:

It's like when people get through something and survive for weeks without food and they're injured etc.. at that present time, the person cannot see past that moment of hurt. God can.


God can? So, what does god propose we do? Should all organisms stop eating each other and starve to death just so god would stop looking down on it? Like I said, what the hell does an omnipotent being know about survival and suffering? What the hell do I know about survival and suffering? If god see life as immoral and look down on us, then it has not empathy.

Which, by the way, touches on the definition of evil that I've accepted for a while now. People have different definitions for evil because it is a purely subjective term. I see evil as having lack of empathy.

Think! Logically, from God's perspective, there are only two good outcomes.
1. The person dies and goes to paradise
2. The person lives.

Mike, whether you know it or not, you've moved the goal post. We were talking about life in general, not people in specific.

In the case of staring children - they have bad lives. This is why God says, "THEIRS is the kingdom of heaven". But fair enough Gasby, if you don't want them to have paradise after that shit life, then fair enough.

Mike, you've unintentionally revealed that at least some part of you don't care about these "staring" children (they're staring at you right now). After all, why care if they're going to paradise after all this shit?

People who profess to not know whether there is an afterlife and/or there's paradise to be found AND care for humanity will try to change the world for the better. It appears that people who use paradise as an excuse to not care for their fellow men... well you be the judge.

You have to understand that I have had many deep intellectual thoughts about the whole picture, because these questions cause my own faith to have trouble.

I know. Someone on this forum has talked to me about you and pointed me to your old posts. I am quite astonished to see how far you've come, from believing in a magical world with tooth fairies and santa clause (I'm exaggerating) to... a magical world with non-magical creatures.

While these questions made you question your magical worldview, they caused me to lose my faith overall.

You're quite right to mention the individual organism. The IO is a victim of it's own selfish genes. That is, the individual starves because in the past, cruel selfish survival of species at al costs, led to that consequent.

Now you're just putting words in my mouth. I never said anything about individual organism. I never said anything about the selfish genes. I never even talked about survival of species at all costs in this topic.

All I've said is life's a bitch to some, and unless you've experienced it first hand please don't pass your moral judgement on others. It makes you look like an ass.

Added by edit.

Think! Logically, from God's perspective, there are only two good outcomes.
1. The person dies and goes to paradise
2. The person lives.

Haha, logical indeed, considering you just committed the existential fallacy.

Think! Logically, from Gandalf's perspective, there are only two good outcomes.
1. The Ring that controls all rings must be destroyed.
2. Sauron's forces must be subdued for all times.

Edited by gasby, : No reason given.


Place yourself on the map at http://www.frappr.com/evc

The thread about this map can be found here.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by mike the wiz, posted 10-26-2006 9:50 AM mike the wiz has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by mike the wiz, posted 10-26-2006 10:23 AM Taz has responded

  
mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4656
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 19 of 53 (358971)
10-26-2006 10:23 AM
Reply to: Message 18 by Taz
10-26-2006 10:07 AM


Re: Hi Gasb
I said;

mike the wiz writes:

if God sees all life as morally inferior because it will do anything for it's survival. God could then have mercy, but all obligations you think God has, would mean nothing at all, logically.

That's my only point. God is not obliged to act on behalf of us, because in this present system, we are animals.

What the hell do I know about survival and suffering? If god see life as immoral and look down on us, then it has not empathy

It's not that God looks down on us, it's just that his is omni-benevolent. he has empathy with us, I believe, and can answer prayer.

Mike, you've unintentionally revealed that at least some part of you don't care about these "staring" children (they're staring at you right now). After all, why care if they're going to paradise after all this shit?

The cold vulcan in me sees it from an objective point of view. Remind me,... who are sheep?

People who profess to not know whether there is an afterlife and/or there's paradise to be found AND care for humanity will try to change the world for the better. It appears that people who use paradise as an excuse to not care for their fellow men... well you be the judge.

You and I don't know who belongs to those categories.

I know. Someone on this forum has talked to me about you and pointed me to your old posts. I am quite astonished to see how far you've come, from believing in a magical world with tooth fairies and santa clause (I'm exaggerating) to... a magical world with non-magical creatures.

While these questions made you question your magical worldview, they caused me to lose my faith overall

Yes, I came far, on one issue which didn't mean that much to me. Evolution and creation. On this board that can be seen as an overwhelming life change, but I assure you, it was a small change really, because mostly I am the same as I ever was.

It's a shame you lost your faith. What was the primary causing factor. Is it suffering on earth? I understand. I don't blame you for losing your faith and I can understand why that can happen. At one stage I didn't believe for about two months.

All I've said is life's a bitch to some, and unless you've experienced it first hand please don't pass your moral judgement on others. It makes you look like an ass.

All I mean by I.O, is the starving individual, or any individual member of a species.

I haven't suffered. But the question is, can suffering and God, exist at the same time.

All of my musings are only beliefs. Hypothetical house 0f card typed scenarios. I am not claiming I know anything, it's just my theology.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by Taz, posted 10-26-2006 10:07 AM Taz has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by Taz, posted 10-26-2006 11:18 AM mike the wiz has responded

  
Taz
Member (Idle past 1456 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 20 of 53 (358990)
10-26-2006 11:18 AM
Reply to: Message 19 by mike the wiz
10-26-2006 10:23 AM


Re: Hi Gasb
mike writes:

That's my only point. God is not obliged to act on behalf of us, because in this present system, we are animals.

It's not that God looks down on us, it's just that his is omni-benevolent. he has empathy with us, I believe, and can answer prayer.


That's not what you said that sparked this little dual.

You said...

quote:
It depends on the premise set down. That perception can so easily be done away with, if God sees all life as morally inferior because it will do anything for it's survival. God could then have mercy, but all obligations you think God has, would mean nothing at all, logically.

I wasn't talking about the second part. I was talking about the underlined part, the part where you made god out to be an unempathetic jerk.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by mike the wiz, posted 10-26-2006 10:23 AM mike the wiz has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by mike the wiz, posted 10-26-2006 11:58 AM Taz has responded

  
mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4656
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 21 of 53 (359007)
10-26-2006 11:58 AM
Reply to: Message 20 by Taz
10-26-2006 11:18 AM


Re: Hi Gasb
You say God is omnipotent and knows nothing of survival, yes?

The starving child, for example, is a victim of his parents. In those poor countries, no one forces them to have sex and therefore have kids.

They have 1. The knowledge about suffering. 2. Omnipotence, in regards to having children.

Yet what do they do? They do it anyway.

now don't take this as an attack on the poor because it isn't, but what it does suggest is true, is what I was mentioning about flesh, and the selfish gene. Here, the flesh overrides the will/spirit.

They know what a shit life their children have. They then have children.

God sees life as morally inferior to him because it is. This doesn't mean he's a jerk, because he still died on the cross for lifeforms. It means his will overrides the flesh, and he does spiritual things not fleshly things. Your flesh tells you in impatience, and ignorance of God, that he is wrong. My spirit, in patience, tells me not to judge God based on emotion.

The Nt can tell you more about the nature of God. Patience, CHARITY, etc.

I know yu want God to be the bad guy, but that's your subjective emotional opinion. My opinion is objective on the matter - I'm not thinking and thinking and thinking about SUFFERING, I'm seeing the whole matter from a logical perspective. That's all.

I'm not saying you're wrong. Perhaps God doesn't exist because of suffering. But you have to apreciate that my belief system incorporates a whole ideology with a whole different set of premisses than other peoples'.

Edited by mike the wiz, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by Taz, posted 10-26-2006 11:18 AM Taz has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by jar, posted 10-26-2006 12:13 PM mike the wiz has responded
 Message 25 by Taz, posted 10-26-2006 12:52 PM mike the wiz has responded
 Message 37 by kuresu, posted 10-26-2006 7:34 PM mike the wiz has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 30981
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 22 of 53 (359013)
10-26-2006 12:13 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by mike the wiz
10-26-2006 11:58 AM


Not flying mike
The starving child, for example, is a victim of his parents. In those poor countries, no one forces them to have sex and therefore have kids.

They have 1. The knowledge about suffering. 2. Omnipotence, in regards to having children.

Yet what do they do? They do it anyway.

Come on Mike. Is that way oversimplified?


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by mike the wiz, posted 10-26-2006 11:58 AM mike the wiz has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by mike the wiz, posted 10-26-2006 12:17 PM jar has responded

  
mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4656
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 23 of 53 (359016)
10-26-2006 12:17 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by jar
10-26-2006 12:13 PM


Re: Not flying mike
It's facts Jar. They know what life is like there, they have the full power to not have children.

Are those two assertions false?

Would you agree with Gasby that God is ajerk, then? *confused*
What's your take on suffering?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by jar, posted 10-26-2006 12:13 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by jar, posted 10-26-2006 12:27 PM mike the wiz has responded
 Message 26 by Taz, posted 10-26-2006 12:56 PM mike the wiz has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 30981
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 24 of 53 (359020)
10-26-2006 12:27 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by mike the wiz
10-26-2006 12:17 PM


Re: Not flying mike
It's facts Jar. They know what life is like there, they have the full power to not have children.

Are those two assertions false?

They are incomplete, the very kind of logical error you jump all over folk for.

Are there cases where life for a family is better with kids than without?

Are all births intentional?

Does everyone actually know what causes births?

In a system where there is no care for the elderly other than family, is there an incentive to create family?

Is there the possibility that the future may be better than the past?

Is it unreasonable to hope for improvement?


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by mike the wiz, posted 10-26-2006 12:17 PM mike the wiz has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by mike the wiz, posted 10-26-2006 12:58 PM jar has not yet responded

  
Taz
Member (Idle past 1456 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 25 of 53 (359024)
10-26-2006 12:52 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by mike the wiz
10-26-2006 11:58 AM


Re: Hi Gasb
mike the wiz writes:

God sees life as morally inferior to him because it is. This doesn't mean he's a jerk, because he still died on the cross for lifeforms. It means his will overrides the flesh, and he does spiritual things not fleshly things. Your flesh tells you in impatience, and ignorance of God, that he is wrong. My spirit, in patience, tells me not to judge God based on emotion.


Yeah... and all people in england are jerks because they are... see, I can make bare assertions just as well as you can.

But the point is would you suggest that all life just lay down and die just so it could be morally right, according to god?

The Nt can tell you more about the nature of God. Patience, CHARITY, etc.

Ok, tell me where in the NT it tells us how a lion can stop eating their preys and still live? Hang on, is there a paradise for crocs?

I'm not saying you're wrong. Perhaps God doesn't exist because of suffering.

What on earth are you talking about? I haven't blamed god for human suffering once in this thread.

But you have to apreciate that my belief system incorporates a whole ideology with a whole different set of premisses than other peoples'.

Actually, no, I let you have your belief system because it's your right, but I don't appreciate it, especially of all the misspellings I've seen so far. And who says brits have better english than us rednecks?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by mike the wiz, posted 10-26-2006 11:58 AM mike the wiz has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by mike the wiz, posted 10-26-2006 1:08 PM Taz has not yet responded

  
Taz
Member (Idle past 1456 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 26 of 53 (359026)
10-26-2006 12:56 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by mike the wiz
10-26-2006 12:17 PM


Re: Not flying mike
mike the wiz writes:

Would you agree with Gasby that God is ajerk, then?


(1) You have some kind of "you're either with me or against me" complex going on.

(2) Please reread my posts. I never said god is a jerk. I said you make god out to be a jerk.

(3) Trust me, jar and I have very different philosophical, political, and theological views.

(4) How can I say god is a jerk when I don't even believe it exists?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by mike the wiz, posted 10-26-2006 12:17 PM mike the wiz has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by mike the wiz, posted 10-26-2006 1:17 PM Taz has not yet responded

  
mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4656
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 27 of 53 (359027)
10-26-2006 12:58 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by jar
10-26-2006 12:27 PM


Re: Not flying mike
Even if those factors are true, they don't negate the two facts.

God is omnipotent. As Gasby said.
God has no knowledge of suffering apparently.

People create people.
Poor people know suffering
.

Gasby implied that God was not empathetic because he was omnipotent and can stop suffering but doesn't (in similar words). Since people are in charge when it comes to creating people, then this means that people are the same by this logic.

I'm taking part in the process of reductio ad absurdum, which takes another's argument, and shows it's implications.

--So if God's a jerk, people are. If people aren't jerks, then God isn't.--

If there are no children, then children can't suffer.

The fact is that those poor people are in it bad and have been for generations. Not having children would logically mean that future suffering would not happen. PERIOD.

If they're willing to risk suffering, then perhaps they would reason that I ws correct in noting that God can see past the hurt. Maybe they can see past the hurt too.

Edited by mike the wiz, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by jar, posted 10-26-2006 12:27 PM jar has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by Taz, posted 10-26-2006 1:02 PM mike the wiz has responded

  
Taz
Member (Idle past 1456 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 28 of 53 (359029)
10-26-2006 1:02 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by mike the wiz
10-26-2006 12:58 PM


Re: Not flying mike
Please stop putting words in my mouth. I've never said any of those things.

Until you stop misrepresenting what I said, this is my last response to you.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by mike the wiz, posted 10-26-2006 12:58 PM mike the wiz has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by mike the wiz, posted 10-26-2006 1:18 PM Taz has not yet responded
 Message 32 by mike the wiz, posted 10-26-2006 1:31 PM Taz has responded

  
mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4656
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 29 of 53 (359031)
10-26-2006 1:08 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by Taz
10-26-2006 12:52 PM


Re: Hi Gasb
Yeah... and all people in england are jerks because they are... see, I can make bare assertions just as well as you can

Didn't you read the part that shown this, accoring to my musings, Dan?

What on earth are you talking about? I haven't blamed god for human suffering once in this thread.

And I have adequately proved that my words don't implicate that God is a jerk.

Actually, no, I let you have your belief system because it's your right,

Thanks, Ill allow you to be an argumentative ass hat who supports female seeking missiles despite the suffering they cause. :)(only kidding)

but I don't appreciate it, especially of all the misspellings I've seen so far.

I've no time for irrelevant academics.

But you're quite right, I'm awful in every way. I agree when you say that I'm an ass and that you think God's a jerk. ;)


This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by Taz, posted 10-26-2006 12:52 PM Taz has not yet responded

  
mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4656
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 30 of 53 (359034)
10-26-2006 1:17 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by Taz
10-26-2006 12:56 PM


Re: Not flying mike
You have some kind of "you're either with me or against me" complex going on.

not really, but humans usually come to this despite their denial of it.

I just wondered why Orang disagreed with me on this one.

I said you make god out to be a jerk.

It's moot because I don't. Your intention is to render my God a jerk.

The gist of my post dealt with what you did say about God not being empathetic, and the implications of your argument.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by Taz, posted 10-26-2006 12:56 PM Taz has not yet responded

  
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