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Author Topic:   The consequences of an intelligent designer
mike the wiz
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Posts: 4656
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 31 of 53 (359035)
10-26-2006 1:18 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by Taz
10-26-2006 1:02 PM


Re: Not flying mike
When someone says "implied" or (similar words), that usually means they are trying to not mis-represent you.
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mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4656
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 32 of 53 (359037)
10-26-2006 1:31 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by Taz
10-26-2006 1:02 PM


Re: Not flying mike
I'm sorry if I was unintentionally mis-representing you.

Do you hate me now? You don't hold grudges because we had one debate do you?


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Taz
Member (Idle past 1428 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 33 of 53 (359052)
10-26-2006 2:36 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by mike the wiz
10-26-2006 1:31 PM


Re: Not flying mike
How can I hold a grudge against someone that doesn't exist?

....

Ok, bad joke. But no, I don't hold grudges. All I'm going to do is change your shoutout statement on your pin on the EvC map.


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Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 16094
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 5.5


Message 34 of 53 (359070)
10-26-2006 3:10 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by Straggler
10-25-2006 7:07 PM


Re: Purpose
My point is that the purpose of the design would logically define the role of the designer and ultimately the nature of the design itself.
If we ask the question of design we necessarily ask of the purpose of the design.
Does the existence and design of life as we know it achieve any discernable purpose that any sort of designer could have hoped to achieve?
Why are we here.........?

Well, I think I can answer your question.

* Adopts ID pose, dons Magical Hat of Analogy, says the mystic ocult words "Petitio principii!" *

Designed objects fall into two categories. First, there are those which are useful. Now the Earth and its ecosystem are not evidently in use. Moreover, so far as we are aware, no design theorist has ever even postulated a use that the Designer (or the Owner) might have for a life-bearing planet, still less shown positive evidence that it has one.

What is it supposed to be for, after all? Is it a manufactory? A conveyance? A utensil? It seems ill-adapted for any purpose.

Experience teaches us that when an object is well designed, but has no practical purpose, it is intended to be ornamental. The Earth, we know, is well-designed. From the fact that the Earth has no conceivable use, it follows that the Earth must fall into the second category. The Earth must be an ornament, a decoration, a work of art.

Hence we have a strong and testable prediction: that the Earth should, in fact, be ornamental. Now the Earth, I think everyone will conceed, is quite stunningly beautiful; and it is noteworthy that the principal exceptions are those parts which have been modified by humanity for practical purposes. Similarly, all our experience teaches us that the most highly ornamental objects are never intended for practical purposes.

To summarize our findings: the Earth has no apparent use; it is evidently highly ornamental; hence it is an ornament.

This deduction is in line with other sciences which deal with the study of design, such as archaeology. If an archaeologist were to unearth an item which was evidently designed, which showed no signs of use, had no conceivable practical use, and was unarguably very beautiful, then that archaeologist would classify it as ornamental in function.

---

I wonder how many other people in the Wonderful Scientific World Of ID have come to this conclusion? I wonder how much ink has been expended over this point?

I wonder ... and I can guess.


This message is a reply to:
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RAZD
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Posts: 19839
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 6.0


Message 35 of 53 (359130)
10-26-2006 7:11 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by Taz
10-26-2006 9:26 AM


ID is pantheistic?
Mike, you've reduced god down to a self righteous son of a bitch ...

Moving back to the consequences of an intelligent designer, why should we assume any morality or ethics are involved? Look at the way we raise chickens and other "factory" foods.

Perhaps life on earth is designed as a breeding ground to biological warfare.

That would certainly explain more than assuming charity or altruism.

What's in it for the designer? Or do we have competing designers, trying hostile take-overs of other designs?

One major consequence of assuming a designer is that there is no reason to stop at one - it is more logical to assume a race or multiple races of designers, as we are using our design ability as an analogy and there is no evidence of a single entity of any form of living or spiritual existence.

If we use humans as an example then we must assume a pantheon of designers with different abilities, different motives and different ethics.

Enjoy.


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we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand

RebelAAmericanOZen[Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


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RAZD
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Posts: 19839
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 6.0


Message 36 of 53 (359137)
10-26-2006 7:19 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by Dr Adequate
10-26-2006 3:10 PM


Re: Purpose
Another reason for disuse is that it has been discarded because it didn't fit the specs. and the earth has been stumbling along with it's malformed systems in the garbage bag universe ...


Join the effort to unravel {AIDS/HIV} {Protenes} and {Cancer} with Team EvC! (click)

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand

RebelAAmericanOZen[Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


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kuresu
Member (Idle past 650 days)
Posts: 2544
From: boulder, colorado
Joined: 03-24-2006


Message 37 of 53 (359142)
10-26-2006 7:34 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by mike the wiz
10-26-2006 11:58 AM


Re: Hi Gasb
You say God is omnipotent and knows nothing of survival, yes?

you forgot to mention the other thing that Gasby said--God is also immortal.

how can an immortal being know what it is like to try and survive?
because in order to try and survive, the risk of death must be real.
so in other words, either your God doesn't know everything, or he is mortal. which is it?

(and unless it's a typo, or I missed something somewhere along the line in this thread, isn't god's knowledge omniscient?)


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2ice_baked_taters
Member (Idle past 3988 days)
Posts: 566
From: Boulder Junction WI.
Joined: 02-16-2006


Message 38 of 53 (359219)
10-27-2006 4:02 AM


Allways the God thing. If that is not bad enough people assume to know what motives "God" might have.
If there is an inelligent designer.....we and all we experience are one set of consequences.
Since when should an intelligent designer or designers have but one purpose or motive? This being the case there may be an endless symphony of intended outcomes. My own view is that I am here to learn. How much I absorb depends upon my density....lol
  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10284
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 39 of 53 (359241)
10-27-2006 6:58 AM
Reply to: Message 34 by Dr Adequate
10-26-2006 3:10 PM


Re: Purpose
Interesting.
However I think there is a flaw in your argument. You say -

Now the Earth, I think everyone will conceed, is quite stunningly beautiful; and it is noteworthy that the principal exceptions are those parts which have been modified by humanity for practical purposes

But if we are part of the design then the design itself is inherently setup to become increasingly less beautiful and therefore less ornamental over time (i.e. as we continue to screw up the planet for our own practical ends)

The obvious conclusion is that the ornamental design you describe would be infinitely better designed if humans had been completely left out of the equation............

Are we the equivelent of termites eating away at the beautifully painted canvas?
Or, to continue in the spirit of your argument, are we in fact the ornament? The equivelent of exotic fish in huge fish tank.


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mick
Member (Idle past 3123 days)
Posts: 913
Joined: 02-17-2005


Message 40 of 53 (359244)
10-27-2006 7:26 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by subbie
10-24-2006 10:47 AM


some hypotheses based on intelligent design theory
subbie writes:

I'd be interested in an exploration of the corollary issues raised as a consequence of an intelligent designer playing some role in the development of life. I don't necessarily wish to limit this discussion to the Intelligent Designer (god) that the creos believe in, but it can include the red herring idea that they've tossed out of an alien intelligence, or any other type of designer that anyone else would find of interest

Intelligent design proponents believe that we can use our knowledge of how human beings carry out intelligent design, to infer the existence of similarly intelligent design in nature.

I did some research into contemporary intelligent design theory in order to generate some hypotheses:

IKEA writes:


It's not easy combining good design and good function with the right quality, at an affordable price. But then we aren't known for taking the easy way out. Designing a desk that costs a fortune is easy. But designing something that's affordable to many — only the truly talented designer and product developer can do that.

Luckily for us, those people work with our designs. By working together with skilled manufacturers, they find ways to get the most out of a raw material. They know how to produce furniture at a low cost, and still keep the original design idea.

They're helping to create the unique IKEA range. We call it a clever range, because it focuses on what's important. We don't do what's unnecessary, because that costs money. And our customers don't want to waste money. They want smart solutions to meet needs they have. The IKEA range is the result of our efforts to meet those needs. It isn't easy. Maybe that's why so few are doing it.

...

The IKEA product range is wide in several ways. First, it's wide in function. Because you shouldn't have to run from one small specialty shop to another to furnish your home. Here, you'll find plants, living room furnishings, toys, frying pans and whole kitchens. Everything that in a functional way helps to build a home is at IKEA.

...

And finally, by being coordinated, the range is wide in function and style at the same time, and at all times. No matter which style you prefer, there's the latest armchair that goes with the classic bookcase that goes with the new extending table that goes with last year's armchair. So our range continues to be wide in a variety of ways. Year after year after year.

I'm assuming that my source is a good example of how empirical observations of intelligent design work in practice. If the natural world is also intelligently designed, we can use our newfound knowledge to make specific predictions such as:

a) all species should be affordable;

b) all species should have been created by skilled manufacturers working closely with the designers;

c) all species should conveniently found in a single location, along with the kitchens and bookcases

c) all species should be color-coordinated

d) all species arrive flat-packed and are assembled with a complimentary allen key

Mick

Edited by mick, : No reason given.

Edited by mick, : added subbie's quote at the beginning

Edited by mick, : I've got to start using that preview button...

Edited by mick, : couldn't resist addng the final hypothesis


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Parasomnium
Member (Idle past 833 days)
Posts: 2191
Joined: 07-15-2003


Message 41 of 53 (359248)
10-27-2006 7:51 AM
Reply to: Message 40 by mick
10-27-2006 7:26 AM


And...
e) all species should have at least one part missing
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iano
Member (Idle past 77 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 42 of 53 (359250)
10-27-2006 7:59 AM
Reply to: Message 41 by Parasomnium
10-27-2006 7:51 AM


Re: And...
IKEA

Ik Kan 'Et Assembleren


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Parasomnium
Member (Idle past 833 days)
Posts: 2191
Joined: 07-15-2003


Message 43 of 53 (359252)
10-27-2006 8:02 AM
Reply to: Message 42 by iano
10-27-2006 7:59 AM


Re: And...
Idioten Kopen Echt Alles...
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iano
Member (Idle past 77 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 44 of 53 (359254)
10-27-2006 8:03 AM
Reply to: Message 43 by Parasomnium
10-27-2006 8:02 AM


Re: And...
:)
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mick
Member (Idle past 3123 days)
Posts: 913
Joined: 02-17-2005


Message 45 of 53 (359257)
10-27-2006 8:06 AM
Reply to: Message 44 by iano
10-27-2006 8:03 AM


Re: And...
I guess each species will also come with irreducably complex assembly instructions
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