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Author Topic:   Origin of Birds
Andya Primanda
Inactive Member


Message 1 of 25 (35879)
03-31-2003 2:48 AM


Guys, I'm currently writing an article to debunk Harun Yahya nonsense about the evolution of birds. As I see it, HY got his arguments mainly from quoting Alan Feduccia, opponent of John Ostrom's dino-bird theory, and said that the recently found Four-Wings Microraptor gui is trouble for the dino-bird theorists.
FYI, I am also skeptic about the dino-bird link. I am in favor of Alan Feduccia's stem reptile-bird theory, as did Larry Martin & Ernst Mayr (as stated in What evolution is). The problems of the dino-bird theory such as 1,2,3 (dino) vs 2,3,4 (bird) digits, short forelimbs, and impossibility of ground-up flight precursor, convinced me that the Ostrom theory is bunk. And that puts us in a strange position, as if agreeing with the Harun Yahya Co. Given the perfect-transitional morphological and temporal state of Archaeopteryx, one must be a real close-minded bigot to say that birds did not evolve from reptiles (but not raptors IMO).
I am working on a series of illustrations depicting the change in skeletal morphology from stem reptiles to Archy to Four-Wings to Ichtyornis to modern domestic chicken. However I ran into trouble in finding the perfect pre-Archaeopteryx reptile. Chinese Sinosauropteryx and other seemingly 'primitive' species came from Cretaceous strata while Archy turned up in Jurassic Solnhofen. And nobody has cleared up on the dubious Protoavis.
Which Triassic/Jurassic species can be considered the beste candidate for the pre-Archy stage? I welcome your suggestions.

Replies to this message:
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PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 2 of 25 (35889)
03-31-2003 6:39 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Andya Primanda
03-31-2003 2:48 AM


The Dino-bird link seems to be pretty strong. As I understand it the development of the digits is not yet confirmed, and is still in dispute.
Mayr's argument regarding the teeth, on the other hand has not to the best of my knwoledge been refuted.
But on the other hand, the evidence from the wrist structure seems rather stronger to my eye.
This page may be a reasonable start for looking at the evidence from the other side of the story (read it for the positive arguments for the dino-bird link - it doesn;t really deal with the opposing arguments).
Dinobuzz: Dinosaur-Bird Relationships

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Zephan
Inactive Member


Message 3 of 25 (35891)
03-31-2003 7:16 AM


I say fish.
Look at the penguin who swims in both degrees of the firmament! Some species of birds actually fly in both water and air. To me, that's alot more persuasive argument than dinosaurs evolving into birds.
Hope this helps.
But then there is the duck billed platipus to account for...

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derwood
Member (Idle past 1875 days)
Posts: 1457
Joined: 12-27-2001


Message 4 of 25 (35935)
03-31-2003 3:42 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by Zephan
03-31-2003 7:16 AM


got to be a troll...
zeppletoast:
quote:
But then there is the duck billed platipus to account for...
Surely, you are not so utterly ignorant of the very topic you belioeve you understand so as to think that the 'duck billed platypus' actually has a duck-like bill?

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mark24
Member (Idle past 5195 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


Message 5 of 25 (35938)
03-31-2003 5:26 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by derwood
03-31-2003 3:42 PM


Re: got to be a troll...
Or that function = morphology

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mark24
Member (Idle past 5195 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


Message 6 of 25 (35940)
03-31-2003 5:59 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Andya Primanda
03-31-2003 2:48 AM


Andya,
Sorry, I can't help you. I remember seeing a book on this very subject on Amazon, & I made a mental note of it due to it's recency. Even so, it wouldn't have made mention of Microraptor gui, but would of noted the other recent Chinese raptor fossils. I'll try to have a think as to where I saw the thing.
Mark
------------------
Occam's razor is not for shaving with.

This message is a reply to:
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Andya Primanda
Inactive Member


Message 7 of 25 (36311)
04-04-2003 9:04 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by mark24
03-31-2003 5:59 PM


bump
Bump. And does anybody have illustrations/photos of Chatterjee's Protoavis? Harun Yahya claimed that it was a modern bird.

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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 8 of 25 (36415)
04-07-2003 1:08 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by Zephan
03-31-2003 7:16 AM


Look at the penguin who swims in both degrees of the firmament! Some species of birds actually fly in both water and air. To me, that's alot more persuasive argument than dinosaurs evolving into birds.
Surely you are aware that penguins can't fly? They can only swim. Kiwis (the bird, not the fruit) can do neither, they can only run.
I'm not aware of any bird species that both swim underwater (ala penguins) and fly. Ducks and other waterfowl simply float on the surface, I wouldn't really call that swimming.
Maybe you'd like to find out a bit more about birds before you talk about them.
------------------
Epimenedes Signature: This is not a signature.

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Percy
Member
Posts: 22388
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 9 of 25 (36419)
04-07-2003 1:38 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by crashfrog
04-07-2003 1:08 PM


crashfrog writes:
I'm not aware of any bird species that both swim underwater (ala penguins) and fly. Ducks and other waterfowl simply float on the surface, I wouldn't really call that swimming.
I think the swimming ducks exist, saw film of them in a documentary once. Have no idea of the species name, sorry.
--Percy

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PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 10 of 25 (36421)
04-07-2003 1:50 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by Percy
04-07-2003 1:38 PM


Diving Ducks
In fact there are several species of ducks that do swim underwater.
The "sawbills" (mergansers and relatives) even have serrated bills for catching fish. Others include ruddy ducks, tufted duck (I think the North American equivalent is the ring-necked duck) and pochard.
And there are plenty of other birds that dive for food as well, including cormorants and grebes (little grebes can be particularly annoying at diving just when you are trying to find them!).

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Mister Pamboli
Member (Idle past 7576 days)
Posts: 634
From: Washington, USA
Joined: 12-10-2001


Message 11 of 25 (36435)
04-07-2003 5:10 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by crashfrog
04-07-2003 1:08 PM


I can't believe someone from Minnesota doesn't know that divers (or loons as they are known on the west side of the Atlantic) are expert underwater swimmers and migratory fliers too.
What do you think loons do down there - play underwater hockey?
Page not found - Annenberg Learner

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Minnemooseus
Member
Posts: 3941
From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior)
Joined: 11-11-2001
Member Rating: 10.0


Message 12 of 25 (36463)
04-08-2003 12:38 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by Mister Pamboli
04-07-2003 5:10 PM


I had thought of Loons earlier, but didn't bother posting anything.
I had lost track the the Frogster was also from Minnesota. The Common Loon is the Minnesota state bird.
I guess the Loons must avoid Prior Lake for some reason.
Moose

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Andya Primanda
Inactive Member


Message 13 of 25 (36469)
04-08-2003 3:17 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by Andya Primanda
04-04-2003 9:04 PM


Re: bump
Anybody got Chatterjee's Protoavis paper?
Btw, why do we start talking about ducks and loons?

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Replies to this message:
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mark24
Member (Idle past 5195 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


Message 14 of 25 (36478)
04-08-2003 7:25 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by Andya Primanda
04-08-2003 3:17 AM


Re: bump
Prim,
Chatterjee wrote two papers 91 & 95, & I've not managed to read either. (Chiappe 1995) suggests, that the fossils (which are incomplete) represent a possible conglomerate of different organisms, a crocodylomorph, an ornithodiran, & a prolacertiform.(Wellnhofer 1994) suggests that Protoavis is a therapod. Regardless, the dinosaur (therapod)-bird hypothesis is supported by many synapomorphies, whilst the basal archosaur hypothesis is (currently) supported by none.
I think the best Chatterjee can hope for is that his archosaur-bird hypothesis takes on the status of "remains to be tested", time will tell.
Mark
------------------
Occam's razor is not for shaving with.
[This message has been edited by mark24, 04-08-2003]

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Andya Primanda
Inactive Member


Message 15 of 25 (36491)
04-08-2003 11:06 AM
Reply to: Message 14 by mark24
04-08-2003 7:25 AM


Re: bump
Of course the dino-bird hypothesis will need to account for the absence of more ancestral forms in pre-Archaeopteryx times. I know that the fossil record is spotty, but if you have a group of raptors with a decent fossil record in Mid to Late Cretaceous and say that they gave rise to Archaeopteryx which existed some 80 million years before, then where were they in the Jurassic?
Or is it the other way round? Raptors evolved from ancient birds, maybe? I can imagine pterosaurs keeping birds from exploiting air niches in the Age of Dinosaurs, until God decided that they are no longer needed and hurl the Chixculub bolide to Yucatan to finish them off with the rest of the big reptiles. Maybe the ancient birds were exploiting a more terrestrial niche back then, that would explain the flightless birds Caudipteryx and Protarchaeopteryx.
Who knows? We are badly in need of fossils.

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