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Author Topic:   Daylight Saving Time - Don't Like It
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 1 of 20 (359474)
10-28-2006 11:05 AM


Yes, I'm a central Hoosier who didn't want the change.
I really, really, really, don't understand how making me wake up an hour earlier all summer saves energy. In getting up an hour earlier, I'm also going to bed an hour earlier. I haven't slept well all summer. I do sleep better if I stay up an hour later to what would have been my regular time, but then I lose an hour of sleep overall because I have to get up that hour earlier.
Now they want to extend the DST, which would only leave 4 months on regular time. I don't see the point.
From what I have read on DST History, it probably helped when first used; but I don't see evidence that it helps today.
People and companies leave their computers on 24/7, there are superstores and fast food buisnesses open 24/7. I don't see that businesses in the U.S. are set up to utilize sunlight as lighting in the offices and therefore not use electric lighting.
Somebody please explain to me how DST actually helps reduce energy consumption in the U.S. and if it doesn't then what is the point?

Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by Hyroglyphx, posted 10-28-2006 11:11 AM purpledawn has replied
 Message 3 by nwr, posted 10-28-2006 11:11 AM purpledawn has not replied
 Message 5 by jar, posted 10-28-2006 12:10 PM purpledawn has replied
 Message 7 by Chiroptera, posted 10-28-2006 1:28 PM purpledawn has not replied
 Message 14 by AnswersInGenitals, posted 10-28-2006 7:57 PM purpledawn has not replied
 Message 15 by Percy, posted 10-28-2006 8:25 PM purpledawn has replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 2 of 20 (359475)
10-28-2006 11:11 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by purpledawn
10-28-2006 11:05 AM


Arizona
I'm not a fan of it either. I mean, if farmers really wanted to, they could just wake up earlier or later depending on the intensity of the sun. Why they made it mandatory for the whole nation to accomodate for them seems bizarre to me.
I say you move to Arizona who does not have DST. Its the same time all year round. I think its the only state who doesn't honor it.

"There is not in all America a more dangerous trait than the deification of mere smartness unaccompanied by any sense of moral responsibility." -Theodore Roosevelt

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by purpledawn, posted 10-28-2006 11:05 AM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by nwr, posted 10-28-2006 11:14 AM Hyroglyphx has not replied
 Message 9 by purpledawn, posted 10-28-2006 1:34 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 3 of 20 (359476)
10-28-2006 11:11 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by purpledawn
10-28-2006 11:05 AM


Daylight savings time is great
but why do they take it away from us in winter, when we most need it?
Somebody please explain to me how DST actually helps reduce energy consumption in the U.S. and if it doesn't then what is the point?
I'll grant that I use more electricity in summer than in winter, but that's due to air conditioning. Lights are on for less time in summer, and daylight savings time does help.
Even if it doesn't save electricity, I like it to be still daylight at 8:30 pm.

Compassionate conservatism - bringing you a kinder, gentler torture chamber

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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nwr
Member
Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 4 of 20 (359477)
10-28-2006 11:14 AM
Reply to: Message 2 by Hyroglyphx
10-28-2006 11:11 AM


Farmers or city slickers?
I mean, if farmers really wanted to, ...
Maybe I'm confused. But I don't think DST was for farmers. It is my impression that farmers have always been against it. DST is for us city slickers.

Compassionate conservatism - bringing you a kinder, gentler torture chamber

This message is a reply to:
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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 5 of 20 (359487)
10-28-2006 12:10 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by purpledawn
10-28-2006 11:05 AM


it's the infrastructure.
I hope you good folk will excuse me for going over some history that most of you likely know, but there may be a few readers that are not aware of the history of Utility Regulation in the US. Please put up with me and excuse an old mans ramblin's.
In the past the various Utilities, Power Companies, were granted a monopoly in a given area but in return, the rates they charged were based on a guaranteed rate of return on their investment. They were told that they would make a certain percentage of profit based on what they invested in infrastructure and in return, they agreed to provide service to everyone in the area.
The result of that policy was that service was extended into rural areas where the density of customers was actually too low to make it economically feasible, because that cost simply went into the "Investment" and they were assured of getting the same rate of return on ten miles of plant that served one customer as the ten miles of plant that served 100.
The only way that the Utility could generate additional revenue though was by investing in infrastructure. Plant, infrastructure, power lines, generating stations, sub stations, transformers, all were a profit center. The more plant, the more redundancy, the newer the equipment, the more the Utility made in absolute dollars.
Then came deregulation. Suddenly the source of revenue changed from the investment in infrastructure to the number of customers. Infrastructure was moved from being the source of revenue, to a cost.
The result has been a sea change in attitude regarding infrastructure. In the past it was advantageous to have as over engineered an infrastructure as possible. Today the attitude is that infrastructure needs to be just good enough to get by.
Returning to time changes.
Today the US infrastructure (not just power but also roads, railways, bridges, dams, waterways and others) is simply marginal. We no longer have the advantages we once had. We are very close at all times to breakdown. If changing the time can make even a very small change, say 1%, it might well mean the difference between the system continuing to barely make it and catastrophic failure.
BUT...
the time change is just addressing the symptoms. It is NOT addressing the problem which is the steady deterioration of the US infrastructure.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by purpledawn, posted 10-28-2006 11:05 AM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
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purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 6 of 20 (359490)
10-28-2006 1:26 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by jar
10-28-2006 12:10 PM


Re: it's the infrastructure.
So let's say it gives them a 1% savings. If they go to the extended DST then there are only 4 months where the clock is back to "normal". Why not just leave the clocks at the DST time all the time?
Does moving it back for those 4 months help the system any?
They aren't helping my system any.

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 Message 5 by jar, posted 10-28-2006 12:10 PM jar has not replied

  
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 7 of 20 (359493)
10-28-2006 1:28 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by purpledawn
10-28-2006 11:05 AM


quote:
I really, really, really, don't understand how making me wake up an hour earlier all summer saves energy.
Before clocks and electric lights became widely used, people used to get up around dawn. That would enable people to make the most efficient use of daylight. Nowadays, people get up the same time every day, or sleep in when they can. In the summer, that means that they get up well after dawn, meaning that the early daylight is unused and wasted.
-
quote:
I do sleep better if I stay up an hour later....
In terms of energy use, that is the problem. By sleeping in an extra hour (and wasting an hour of daylight), you stay up an extra hour into the night and use an extra hour's worth of electricity for lighting.
-
Not that this helps your problem any, just an explanation of how energy is saved by daylight savings time.
If people think that going to daylight savings time all year round will save energy, then that would have to be because nowadays people in general, all year round, get up too late to make maximum use of available daylight.
P.S. I don't like daylight savings time, either. But then, I tend to get up anyway just before or around sunrise anyway, so the energy savings doesn't work for me. Where I waste energy is when my work schedule makes me get up before dawn, forcing me to use electricity in the morning.
Also, my work space doesn't have windows, so I'm forced to use electricity all throughout the day anyway, so daylight savings time has absolutely no effect on how much energy I end up using.
Anyway, the main problem is living in a society addicted to clocks.

"My country is the world, and my religion is to do good." -- Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
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dwise1
Member
Posts: 5930
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.8


Message 8 of 20 (359494)
10-28-2006 1:29 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by nwr
10-28-2006 11:11 AM


Re: Daylight savings time is great
but why do they take it away from us in winter, when we most need it?
We tried having it in the winter. Miserable PR failure.
During the Carter Administration in response to the oil embargo. If you didn't live through it, ask your family about the gasoline shortages, lines blocks long at the gas pumps, only being allowed to buy gas every other day based on your license plate, gas prices soaring up to and past the $1 mark (big problem for gas stations that still had mechanical pumps*), freeway/interstate speed limits clamped down to "double-nickels" (ie, 55 mph).
So they figured to switch to DST year-round, which only lasted one year (or was that slightly less than a year?). Started on 01 Jan, but I forget whether it went away in a month or two or we went back off it on schedule at the end of October. The main public outcry against it was that it was pitch dark when the children were walking to school.
Don't know whether there was any such outcry during WWII when we were on "War Time", which was DST year-round. The British did the same thing, only in the summer they also added their regular "Summer Time" (their name for DST) on top of their "War Time" and called it "Double Summer Time".
Hey, at least we didn't implement it as originally proposed in the late 1800's. Twenty minutes each week for three weeks.
* Footnote:
In the late 70's, most gas stations had not yet upgraded to the new electronic pumps and the mechanical pumps couldn't handle displaying gas prices over $0.99 (must have been able to set that internally, because some just put a "1" sticker in front of the price). So one enterprising station in the Midwest decided to implement the federal mandate to switch to metric (yeah, we know how far that one got too) and started selling gas by the liter instead of by the gallon. Since a liter is about a quart (4 quarts make a gallon), when they posted their prices in liters customers thought that they were selling gas for a fourth the going price and they flocked to buy up that "cheap" gas.
Edited by dwise1, : No reason given.
Edited by dwise1, : No reason given.
Edited by dwise1, : Argh! It killed my footnote!

This message is a reply to:
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purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 9 of 20 (359495)
10-28-2006 1:34 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by Hyroglyphx
10-28-2006 11:11 AM


Re: Arizona
quote:
I mean, if farmers really wanted to, they could just wake up earlier or later depending on the intensity of the sun.
Don't blame farmers. IMO, clocks only come into play when dealing with businesses. Animals don't watch the clock.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by Hyroglyphx, posted 10-28-2006 11:11 AM Hyroglyphx has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by dwise1, posted 10-28-2006 2:03 PM purpledawn has replied

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 5930
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.8


Message 10 of 20 (359500)
10-28-2006 2:03 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by purpledawn
10-28-2006 1:34 PM


Re: Arizona
I mean, if farmers really wanted to, they could just wake up earlier or later depending on the intensity of the sun.
The story I heard years ago on NPR was that the originator of DST wanted to make that one-hour transition 20 minutes a week. So that the farm animals would be better able to adjust.
Yeah, he didn't have a clue.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by purpledawn, posted 10-28-2006 1:34 PM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by purpledawn, posted 10-28-2006 2:16 PM dwise1 has not replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 11 of 20 (359501)
10-28-2006 2:16 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by dwise1
10-28-2006 2:03 PM


Re: Arizona
The only thing the animals would have to adjust to is the change in the farmer's habits. He would now be coming into the barn to feed or milk them an hour earlier than before.
We had beef cattle and they don't care, but I think dairy cows are affected more by changes in routine.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by Chiroptera, posted 10-28-2006 2:42 PM purpledawn has not replied

  
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 12 of 20 (359510)
10-28-2006 2:42 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by purpledawn
10-28-2006 2:16 PM


Re: Arizona
quote:
I think dairy cows are affected more by changes in routine.
In fact, I've read that dairy farmers are the ones who dislike DST the most because they can't change their routine. They have to milk the cows at the same time every day regardless of what the clock says.

"My country is the world, and my religion is to do good." -- Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by kjsimons, posted 10-28-2006 4:56 PM Chiroptera has not replied

  
kjsimons
Member
Posts: 821
From: Orlando,FL
Joined: 06-17-2003
Member Rating: 6.7


Message 13 of 20 (359529)
10-28-2006 4:56 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by Chiroptera
10-28-2006 2:42 PM


Furry alarm clock
All I know is that my furry, four legged alarm clock, also known as my cat, doesn't understand that I get to sleep in an hour longer tomorrow!
Edited by kjsimons, : Spelling

This message is a reply to:
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AnswersInGenitals
Member (Idle past 151 days)
Posts: 673
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 14 of 20 (359548)
10-28-2006 7:57 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by purpledawn
10-28-2006 11:05 AM


I'v noticed an 18% reduction in the number of candles I use each day during the week after DST goes into effect. These equates to a saving of 2.7 microwhales per decade.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by purpledawn, posted 10-28-2006 11:05 AM purpledawn has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22391
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 15 of 20 (359554)
10-28-2006 8:25 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by purpledawn
10-28-2006 11:05 AM


I've lived under DST all my life and hate it with a passion. I'm a bit of an extremist, though, as I'm also against timezones. We should all use GMT.
Getting rid of DST seems very unlikely, and reducing it also seems unlikely since it has just recently been expanded, but perhaps we can hope that they keep extending DST until there's no regular time left. DST all year round would be just as good as regular time all year round.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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