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Author Topic:   Laws of Attraction: The seduction of Evolutionary Psychology?
Silent H
Member (Idle past 5846 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 94 of 102 (353153)
09-29-2006 2:33 PM
Reply to: Message 93 by Quetzal
09-29-2006 9:08 AM


Re: bump: new evidence counters some EP claims
Although the authors do say that "attractiveness" is based more on processing than symmetry, they don't say that symmetry isn't a component of the ease of processing they noted.
I guess I should have been clearer. I was not claiming that symmetry has no role in the ease of processing, and so attractiveness. Indeed in my earlier statements regarding EP itself, I agree that symmetry can be the cue for attractiveness. Symmetry allows for ease of processing, which we perceive as (or it helps generate feelings of) attractiveness.
I'm not clear how you can make the statement that this "does not rely on specific evolutionary benefits".
Ease of scanning and using symmetry for ease of scanning may very well have eveolutionary benefits. My intended target was EP concepts of what specific evolutionary benefits resulted in symmetry being a cue for attractiveness.
Current EP theory argues that body symmetry as a factor in determining attractiveness among humans is due to its role in selecting for genetic health in partners. The evidence consists of tests which show that people tend to find symmetrical body features attractive, and separately that people with symmetric body features tend to have better health.
The point of my discussing this article is to show that that specific benefit EP has championed is not the only plausible explanation for why humans find attraction in visual symmetry. The preference is more generalized, and so partner "health" selection becomes less plausible to claim for its appearance in humans.
I hope this makes sense. In a way I was attacking the rather loose methodology that EP has employed to date, which is reminiscent of ID theory. It is not correct to simply pull two correlations together and suggest one has found a causative relationship.
Along this line it was argued that EP conclusions regarding attraction were suggestive, and my possible alternatives were not. Mine just got some support.

holmes {in temp decloak from lurker mode}
"What a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away." (D.Bros)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by Quetzal, posted 09-29-2006 9:08 AM Quetzal has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 95 by Quetzal, posted 09-29-2006 4:03 PM Silent H has not replied

  
Silent H
Member (Idle past 5846 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 97 of 102 (354087)
10-04-2006 5:52 AM
Reply to: Message 96 by RAZD
10-03-2006 9:07 PM


Re: but what's first?
But what comes first - the perception that the image is easy to process or the ability to process the image for easy perception?
I don't know. And I think that's going to be a hard one to puzzle out, except perhaps using comparative animal studies.
My only attempt at an answer is that it could be defined mathematically. That is there is some objective quality to ease of processing. The more symmetries exist the greater the potential for ease of processing. It all depends on the nature of the perceptual organ of course as to what characteristics would be picked up and assessed.
These two tendencies would be enough for natural selection to favor organisms finding average individuals to be attractive.
The problem is when that same tendency is seen outside of mating selection choice. If every choice tends for averageness, for example look of car or taste of chili, then that makes it harder to discuss that tendency being tied to potential mate selection benefits.
If averages seem to be preferred regardless of topic, and averages are connected to ease of processing regardless of topic, then the more likely explanation is beings tend to prefer things that are easy to process regardless of a specific benefit.
My own personal opinion, is that that would make sense as it would relate to familiarity and so comfort. If something takes longer to process it may stay in the "potential danger" category longer. That would seem to have an evolutionary advantage in not trusting the unknown, which could kill you.
The images could be easy to process because they are compared against an averaged template eh? The more similar {A} is to {ideal beauty} the easier it is to process.
Its possible, but I thought it was suggested the study used simple dot arrangements as well. Its hard to have an ideal dot arrangement. In any case you are right and it would be important to use objects which are not familiar to subjects and so have no preconceived notions of attractiveness.
Ease of processing does not explain the different markings on very similar species, from rather insignificant white lines in some throats to marks that are only displayed during {mating\courtship} displays.
This is true, though its hard to say what any animal's cues are. Perhaps something that does not jump out to us, jumps out to another animal. Thus where we see something more chaotic, they see something more symmetric as only the symmetric elements are prominent.
I agree it'll be interesting to see where this research goes.
Though my gf is going to a dutch university many of her neuro and cog books are in english and I'm finding brain processing quite fascinating.
Edited by holmes, : little here and there

holmes {in temp decloak from lurker mode}
"What a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away." (D.Bros)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 96 by RAZD, posted 10-03-2006 9:07 PM RAZD has not replied

  
Silent H
Member (Idle past 5846 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 98 of 102 (359888)
10-30-2006 2:46 PM


bumping for Dawkins and any morality EP research
In another thread regarding Dawkins, EP was mentioned as uncovering/explaining the existence/nature of morality. I am bumping this thread for anyone who has examples of such research to post them here.

holmes {in temp decloak from lurker mode}
"What a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away." (D.Bros)

Replies to this message:
 Message 99 by Dr Adequate, posted 10-30-2006 10:56 PM Silent H has replied

  
Silent H
Member (Idle past 5846 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 100 of 102 (360157)
10-31-2006 2:26 PM
Reply to: Message 99 by Dr Adequate
10-30-2006 10:56 PM


IPD
Have we covered the IPD?
If we have not I am willing to discuss it. Off the top of my head I am not certain what IPD stands for. A short description will suffice.

holmes {in temp decloak from lurker mode}
"What a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away." (D.Bros)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 99 by Dr Adequate, posted 10-30-2006 10:56 PM Dr Adequate has not replied

  
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