Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 66 (9164 total)
3 online now:
Newest Member: ChatGPT
Post Volume: Total: 916,478 Year: 3,735/9,624 Month: 606/974 Week: 219/276 Day: 59/34 Hour: 2/3


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Your eternal destination: you decide.
macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3950 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 61 of 246 (360602)
11-01-2006 11:34 PM
Reply to: Message 60 by Faith
11-01-2006 10:57 PM


Re: To be fair to Iano...
well for one it states that women are full and equal humans with perfect agency under allah. there are a few business applications that reduce their status but there's certainly nothing about them being forbidden to speak in church...
also, the bit about virgins isn't in there. it talks about white flowers which is understood to be an expression referring to locally adored light-skinned women as an expression of the perfect pleasure of being in god's presence. but it says nothing about virgins or their numbers. further, the koran states that one wife is perfect but no more than four is acceptable. these things you discuss are things developed in hadith which is kind of like the talmud. it's a bunch of stuffy old bastards discussing what they think god meant.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by Faith, posted 11-01-2006 10:57 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 62 by Faith, posted 11-01-2006 11:56 PM macaroniandcheese has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 62 of 246 (360605)
11-01-2006 11:56 PM
Reply to: Message 61 by macaroniandcheese
11-01-2006 11:34 PM


Re: To be fair to Iano...
I haven't been able to get through the Koran myself, just part of it here and there, but I'd heard the Koran wasn't specific about the 72 virgins, that the idea was spelled out in the Hadiths and Muslim tradition, but there's more along those lines in the Koran nevertheless than you acknowledge:
http://www.straightdope.com/columns/011214.html
The difficulty in determining what the Koran has to say about virgins and such is establishing what the Koran says, period. Translators vary widely in their rendering of the spare and often opaque text. For example, we find the following passage in a Web-based version of Islam's holy book
http://www.unn.ac.uk/societies/islamic/index.htm
"Verily, for the Muttaqun [righteous], there will be a success (paradise); gardens and grapeyards; and young full-breasted (mature) maidens of equal age; and a full cup (of wine)" (An-Naba 78:31-34). Whoa, one thinks--the Kingdom of Heaven meets the Playboy Advisor! However, most other English translations, both on-line and in print, replace "full-breasted maidens" with some tame construction such as "companions." Inquiring further, we find that the Arabic word at issue is WakawaAAiba, which appears nowhere else in the Koran. The French, less prudish in these matters, usually render it as something like des belles aux seins arrondis, "beautiful women with round breasts," so I think it's pretty clear what the Prophet, or at least his stenographers, had in mind.
Nothing in the Koran specifically states that the faithful are allotted 72 virgins apiece. For this elaboration we turn to the hadith, traditional sayings traced with varying degrees of credibility to Muhammad. Hadith number 2,562 in the collection known as the Sunan al-Tirmidhi says, "The least [reward] for the people of Heaven is 80,000 servants and 72 wives, over which stands a dome of pearls, aquamarine and ruby."
A little hype from the marketing department, you may say. Fine. Let's return to the Koran, Islam's font of religious authority. Even if we leave out the racy detail and make allowances for metaphor, we're obliged to admit that Islamic heaven is a pretty rockin' place, with an emphasis on sensual pleasures. The provision of virgins in indeterminate quantities is alluded to at numerous points, and you know they're not just there to fluff the pillows. (In fairness to the Prophet, the physical quality usually attributed to the houris, as they're called, is "wide lovely eyes.") The food, service, ambience., etc, are great.
About the Koran's stating that women have equality, can you give a quotation or chapter and verse? If it does, then it seems that Muslims don't exactly live by their Koran.
well for one it states that women are full and equal humans with perfect agency under allah. there are a few business applications that reduce their status but there's certainly nothing about them being forbidden to speak in church...
Very odd notions here I must say. A friend with extensive experience among Muslims -- in Europe, not here -- told me when we were thinking of possibly visiting a local mosque, which we may yet do, that I should be prepared to wear something up to the neck and down to the wrists and a long skirt, with my hair covered of course, and that we would enter the mosque by a door set apart for women only and sit in a segregated area for women only. Nothing about being forbidden to speak in church?
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by macaroniandcheese, posted 11-01-2006 11:34 PM macaroniandcheese has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 64 by macaroniandcheese, posted 11-02-2006 12:21 AM Faith has not replied

  
Archer Opteryx
Member (Idle past 3620 days)
Posts: 1811
From: East Asia
Joined: 08-16-2006


Message 63 of 246 (360607)
11-02-2006 12:11 AM
Reply to: Message 22 by iano
11-01-2006 2:06 PM


YEC = KFC
Well I'm a rabid Christian so lets have a look see. I know Allah can't exist when I know God does. Someone who cannot exist cannot send me anywhere.
Calling Colonel Sanders!
That's okay, Iano. Subbie has already called you on your fear of creative thinking after asking it of others. But I never expected anything from you other than the programmed responses.
Fundies are as fundies do. You can set a clock by the patterns.
quote:
The wicked flee when no one pursues,
but the righteous are as bold as a lion.
Proverbs 28.1
___
Edited by Archer Opterix, : Quote.
Edited by Archer Opterix, : Brevity.

Archer
All species are transitional.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by iano, posted 11-01-2006 2:06 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 76 by iano, posted 11-02-2006 5:41 AM Archer Opteryx has replied

  
macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3950 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 64 of 246 (360610)
11-02-2006 12:21 AM
Reply to: Message 62 by Faith
11-01-2006 11:56 PM


Re: To be fair to Iano...
About the Koran's stating that women have equality, can you give a quotation or chapter and verse?
i'll get right on that, as soon as i can find my koran and my books under the morass of articles on other crap. hell, maybe i'll even finish my papers first. remind me. i'm serious. i just also have a hundred pages to write in the next month.
it seems that Muslims don't exactly live by their Koran.
nor christians their bible.
I should be prepared to wear something up to the neck and down to the wrists and a long skirt, with my hair covered of course, and that we would enter the mosque by a door set apart for women only and sit in a segregated area for women only.
modesty is commended in the koran. but even the prophet's favorite wife aisha refused to veil herself and was the pinacle of respected muslim woman. there is nothing in the koran about specific veiling procedures only that the bosom and private bits should be covered. precicely that women should draw their garments around them to cover themselves. all other discussion of hijab is in hadith. also, the extent of hijab varies greatly with local custom. ever been to indonesia?
i will check again for stuff on mosque segregation, but i'm willing to bet that it is again a matter of patriarchal custom and hadith. however, the old testament claims that women should never speak or sing in church because their voices are seductive and cause sin and our dear friend paul says that women should be quiet in church and if they want to learn something, they should ask their husbands.
also, you can quote all the websites you like. until you bother to read some actual theology and the damn book itself, i'll continue to assume your complete ignorance.
Edited by brennakimi, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by Faith, posted 11-01-2006 11:56 PM Faith has not replied

  
Sour
Member (Idle past 2269 days)
Posts: 63
From: I don't know but when I find out there will be trouble. (Portsmouth UK)
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 65 of 246 (360611)
11-02-2006 12:28 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by iano
11-01-2006 10:40 AM


I like Phat's idea that we get an audience with him. After I'd picked my jaw up off the floor I like to think I'd kick him in the nuts, or at least offer some suggestions for improvement.
Alternatively he'd send me to heaven for using the brain he gave me to ask questions and dealing as honestly as I could with this bizarre experience called existence.
Or he'd send me to hell for blasphemy, idolatry, pride, envy, gluttony, lust, anger, greed and sloth. Oh and lust.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by iano, posted 11-01-2006 10:40 AM iano has not replied

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 5949
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.5


Message 66 of 246 (360613)
11-02-2006 12:50 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by iano
11-01-2006 10:40 AM


Again with Pascal's Wager!
Even the most rabid athiest will accept that God of the Bible could inf fact exist.
Or Allah. Or Vishnu. Or Horus. Or Bel and Anu. Or Amaterasu. Actually, Amaterasu is the best bet for having existed, since Her direct descendent is alive today.
We don't need no "after-life insurance" (No webpage found at provided URL: http://members.aol.com/dwise1/cre_ev/wager.html). Never did and never will. It's a completely no-win deal that promises a sure-win and instead takes us to the cleaners.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by iano, posted 11-01-2006 10:40 AM iano has not replied

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 6409
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 67 of 246 (360614)
11-02-2006 12:52 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by iano
11-01-2006 10:40 AM


Let's see. The choice seems to be between a place with interminable harp muzak piped in, and a place where one gets to sit around the camp fire and talk with one's buddies.
It would probably be my bad luck to be stuck with the muzak system. Boring.

Compassionate conservatism - bringing you a kinder, gentler torture chamber

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by iano, posted 11-01-2006 10:40 AM iano has not replied

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 5949
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.5


Message 68 of 246 (360615)
11-02-2006 12:53 AM
Reply to: Message 22 by iano
11-01-2006 2:06 PM


Someone who cannot exist cannot send me anywhere.
Bingo!
And to that we say, amen.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by iano, posted 11-01-2006 2:06 PM iano has not replied

  
subbie
Member (Idle past 1277 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 69 of 246 (360616)
11-02-2006 12:59 AM
Reply to: Message 57 by iano
11-01-2006 8:05 PM


I have described several times what my problem is with your non-answer. So have others.
Even Faith, whose dedication to her beliefs is no less fervent than yours, answered the question honestly.
Yes, it is a debate forum. And you are free to raise issues of interest to you without addressing them yourself. Exactly what point you thought you were making is lost on me. The point I took from it is that the atheists here are more willing to paticipate in an exchange of ideas and engage under the terms set than you are. I, like Archer, didn't really expect you to give an answer. However, my reasons differ somewhat from Archer's. I think Faith is no less a "fundy" than you are, but I was actually not surprised when she did answer the question.
I have always felt that much of what you say here about your religion betrays a certain insecurity about it. Your shuffling about in this thread serves only to confirm that suspicion. There's really no need for you to deny that you are insecure. Quite often those who are the most insecure are the least able to see it, so I fully expect that you will toss my thoughts aside.

Those who would sacrifice an essential liberty for a temporary security will lose both, and deserve neither. -- Benjamin Franklin

This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by iano, posted 11-01-2006 8:05 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 72 by Archer Opteryx, posted 11-02-2006 4:59 AM subbie has not replied
 Message 73 by iano, posted 11-02-2006 5:23 AM subbie has replied

  
iceage 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5937 days)
Posts: 1024
From: Pacific Northwest
Joined: 09-08-2003


Message 70 of 246 (360618)
11-02-2006 1:14 AM
Reply to: Message 58 by iano
11-01-2006 8:09 PM


Re: Salvation Meme
how ripe
Yes something is ripe. When asked to consider the same question you posed to others you started mumbling something about - lightyears and ripe cheese.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by iano, posted 11-01-2006 8:09 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 74 by iano, posted 11-02-2006 5:29 AM iceage has not replied

  
iceage 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5937 days)
Posts: 1024
From: Pacific Northwest
Joined: 09-08-2003


Message 71 of 246 (360622)
11-02-2006 1:32 AM
Reply to: Message 54 by iano
11-01-2006 7:22 PM


Ways of knowing
Whereas I can know he (God) does.
And you know he exists because, if I remember, you "suspended disbelief."
I have heard of people on the proper dosage of psychoactive drugs were induced to “suspended disbelief” in their inability to fly. They re-established a connection with reality at the end of the fall.
Furthermore there are people is state hospitals that know they are Jesus. Is this the same kind of knowing?
Edited by iceage, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by iano, posted 11-01-2006 7:22 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 75 by iano, posted 11-02-2006 5:34 AM iceage has replied

  
Archer Opteryx
Member (Idle past 3620 days)
Posts: 1811
From: East Asia
Joined: 08-16-2006


Message 72 of 246 (360639)
11-02-2006 4:59 AM
Reply to: Message 69 by subbie
11-02-2006 12:59 AM


Rush Week at the Atheists Society
subbie (paraphrasing the OP) asks:
Even the most rabid [Christian] will accept that [Allah] can well exist. They would also accept that Heaven and Hell of the [Q'uran] can exist (for simplicities sake: Heaven is bliss, Hell ain't)
If you were to die a few minutes from now where do you think [Allah] would send you? And why do you think he would send you there?
A fruitful question, Subbie. We learned a lot.
We learned Iano is an unbeliever as rabid as any other(Message 22):
Someone who cannot exist cannot send me anywhere.
And we got to watch Faith call down eternal damnation on herself (Message 39):
He'd send me to the deepest Muslim hell
It turns out Iano has more in common that anyone suspected with alacrity fitzhugh (25), while Faith could be a barbecue buddy for CK and RickJB (2/4, 18).
Watch out for that atheist rabies. It's contagious.
quote:
I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.
Stephen Roberts

Archer
All species are transitional.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by subbie, posted 11-02-2006 12:59 AM subbie has not replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1963 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 73 of 246 (360646)
11-02-2006 5:23 AM
Reply to: Message 69 by subbie
11-02-2006 12:59 AM


I have described several times what my problem is with your non-answer. So have others
A quick trawl back through what you have written shows:
a) a series of posts objecting to my saying that an athiest must believe that God must exist. You eventually realised I hadn't said this. "Mea culpa" were your words
b) a non-specific complaint that you don't like the answer. You call it a "non-answer" but don't say why you suppose that it is.
Like I said Subbie. This is a debate forum. You are free to pick apart the answer if you like. You refrain from doing so. The rest of your post is based on your assertion that the answer I gave is a non-answer so hangs or falls on it being so.
Let me spell it out for you. An atheist must admit that God can exist. A person who knows God of the Bible exists can know that Allah doesn't. That other supposed gods are false gods. And lets face it: a person can know God exists. All it takes is for God to exist and for Him to let a person know that he does. There is no impediment to him doing so.
Its not a "non-answer" - its an answer you don't like. A old man can ask a child what he wants to be when he becomes an adult. A child cannot ask an adult what he wants to be when he becomes an adult. You presume a reciprocity that need not exist.
The problem is not the non-answer, its the non-question.
Edited by iano, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by subbie, posted 11-02-2006 12:59 AM subbie has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 81 by subbie, posted 11-02-2006 6:27 AM iano has replied
 Message 119 by AnswersInGenitals, posted 11-02-2006 3:58 PM iano has not replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1963 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 74 of 246 (360648)
11-02-2006 5:29 AM
Reply to: Message 70 by iceage
11-02-2006 1:14 AM


Re: Salvation Meme
Yes something is ripe. When asked to consider the same question you posed to others you started mumbling something about - lightyears and ripe cheese.
You introduced some tripe about me aligning with RC in order to cover my arse (or some such guff). I responded to that. That has nothing to do with the 'same question'

This message is a reply to:
 Message 70 by iceage, posted 11-02-2006 1:14 AM iceage has not replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1963 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 75 of 246 (360649)
11-02-2006 5:34 AM
Reply to: Message 71 by iceage
11-02-2006 1:32 AM


Re: Ways of knowing
And you know he exists because, if I remember, you "suspended disbelief."
You've a poor memory
The rest of your post is plain rubbish.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by iceage, posted 11-02-2006 1:32 AM iceage has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 111 by iceage, posted 11-02-2006 1:49 PM iano has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024