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Author Topic:   Hovind busted, finally
DrJones*
Member
Posts: 2106
From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 08-19-2004
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 181 of 308 (360982)
11-02-2006 9:16 PM
Reply to: Message 176 by iano
11-02-2006 8:08 PM


Re: What great news.
This is sin demonstrating how vile it is

Yes how dare Jar hope that people convicted of multiple crimes actually be sentenced as the laws allow.


Just a monkey in a long line of kings.
If "elitist" just means "not the dumbest motherfucker in the room", I'll be an elitist!
*not an actual doctor

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Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 182 of 308 (360983)
11-02-2006 9:29 PM
Reply to: Message 166 by jar
11-02-2006 6:37 PM


Re: What great news.
I'm not sure that I agree. I don't see the point of sending a person who poses no threat to others to jail.


Kings were put to death long before 21 January 1793. But regicides of earlier times and their followers were interested in attacking the person, not the principle, of the king. They wanted another king, and that was all. It never occurred to them that the throne could remain empty forever. -- Albert Camus

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8933
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 183 of 308 (360985)
11-02-2006 9:37 PM
Reply to: Message 182 by Chiroptera
11-02-2006 9:29 PM


The point
I'll bet you dollars to donuts that Hovind himself believes in sending drug users (and anyone who he doesn't like) to jail for long terms.

Hovind has done harm to others. If he gets away with it then he'll do more.

However, I agree, that decades would be excessive. Strip the money he's gotten illegally and send him up for a small number of years.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 182 by Chiroptera, posted 11-02-2006 9:29 PM Chiroptera has not yet responded

Modulous
Member (Idle past 655 days)
Posts: 7789
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 184 of 308 (360993)
11-02-2006 10:03 PM
Reply to: Message 175 by iano
11-02-2006 8:00 PM


previous cases
Al Capone was sentenced to 11 years.

Ronnie Biggs was sentenced for 30

Surinder Singh Panshi got 16 years, and he plead guilty.

If the amount stolen is in the tens of millions then 20+ year sentences have been handed out. Hovind isn't anywhere near this level so he's unlikely to spend a lot of time in jail.

A more applicable case was Rev. Henry Lyons who was sentenced for 5 and a half years, though he had more than tax evasion under his belt - racketeering was included in that.

Another comparable case looks to be this one where the tax cheat was forced to pay his taxes, a $30,000 fine and do 800 hours of community service. I suspect Hovind will get more than that though.

The closest thing I can find is Minesh Krishnadas Mehta:

quote:
A San Francisco parking lot owner was sentenced to 15 months and ordered to pay $340,111 in restitution after evading taxes on more than $900,000 in income.

Minesh Krishnadas Mehta, 44, of San Francisco, pleaded guilty to two counts of tax evasion. Mehta admitted that from 1999 to 2000, he operated numerous parking lots in the San Francisco Bay Area that generated a substantial amount of cash receipts. Mehta deposited the cash receipts in amounts less than $10,000, so banks would not notify the IRS. He did this so the IRS would not discover the correct amount of cash receipts his parking lots were earning.

Mehta admitted that he had failed to report on his individual income tax returns a total of $926,304 for the years 1999 and 2000. Mehta also acknowledged that because he failed to report that amount on his income tax returns, he underpaid a total of $358,307 in income tax for those years.


Since Hovind is charged for a similar amount, but with plenty of other indictments to his name as well, I suspect that two years at a minimum and I'd reckon that 3-5 wouldn't be out of the question as a minimum. Of course, IANAL so I could be atrociously wrong with my estimates.


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nator
Member (Idle past 721 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 185 of 308 (360995)
11-02-2006 10:14 PM
Reply to: Message 182 by Chiroptera
11-02-2006 9:29 PM


Re: What great news.
he's a cheat who bilked people out of their social security money and also bilked the community out of their tax revenue.

Of course he should go to jail.


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 186 of 308 (360997)
11-02-2006 10:23 PM
Reply to: Message 185 by nator
11-02-2006 10:14 PM


Re: What great news.
Hi, schrafinator.

I agree that if Hovind did cheat people, then he must be prevented from continuing to cheat people. However, the Pensacola News Journal article gives the impression that the only things for which he was convicted was cheating on his taxes. I'm not sure that makes him such a danger to society that it warrants sequestering him.

On the other hand, I do see Ned's point; if Hovind is one of those law-and-order, lock-em-up-forever type of Christians, then I do see the poetic justice in his serving a long sentence.


Kings were put to death long before 21 January 1793. But regicides of earlier times and their followers were interested in attacking the person, not the principle, of the king. They wanted another king, and that was all. It never occurred to them that the throne could remain empty forever. -- Albert Camus

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Replies to this message:
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jar
Member
Posts: 32664
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 187 of 308 (360999)
11-02-2006 10:41 PM
Reply to: Message 186 by Chiroptera
11-02-2006 10:23 PM


Re: What great news.
Let me try to explain just why I hope they set an example with Hovind.

The charge is he failed to pay employee taxes. This is not just cheating on HIS money, he endangered the welfare and retirement of his employees. Their social security got reduced. Their unemployment taxes didn't get paid. Their retirement funds got redirected.

And he did this out of greed.

In addition, this crook, this conman, is teaching others. He is out there preaching ignorance and lawlessness.

Had he simply stepped up and ponied up to the bar, admitted he was a fraud, offered to make amends, paid the back taxes owed I would have applauded him. But he didn't.

Part of the duty of being a Christian is to try to do what is right, and when you screw up, admit it, try to make amends and try to do better in the future.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
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Percy
Member
Posts: 19844
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 188 of 308 (361062)
11-03-2006 7:50 AM


How I See It
Religion is fertile ground for the conman, and Hovind is a conman who just can't help himself. When faced with a choice between an honest course of action and a con, Hovind has trouble resisting the con. Hovind has been conning innocent Christians for years, not just about religion and science, but about law. "Honey, you're not working for me, you're working for God, so you owe no taxes. By the way, you were late yesterday, don't let it happen again or we, I mean God, will dock your pay. Now please get back to work mopping my, I mean God's, floors." His big mistake was trying to con the federal government.

Law without enforcement is ineffective. Law enforcement serves the purpose of achieving compliance through the threats of fines and incarceration. It is the fear of fines and incarceration, along with acompanying social embarrassment, that causes most compliance.

While fear of incarceration serves as a deterent to most people, for some it is insufficient, and so for them there is actual incarceration, punishment through loss of freedom and civil rights.

Incarceration is also a good alternative for those whose tendency is to encourage others to commit crimes, because it removes them contact with society where they can fulfill this tendency.

Hovind deserves incarceration for two reasons. This isn't the first time he was charged with tax fraud, it's the second, and with his attitude about taxes he's undoubtedly had other tax run-ins that haven't come to national attention. His first tax case was for much lesser amounts and so incarceration was probably only a minor threat, but as he has now repeated the crime for much larger amounts it is clear that the mere threat of incarceration is an insufficient deterrent for Hovind.

So the government must go to the next step of actual incarceration in the hope that when he is released Hovind will have changed his perspective on incarceration and view it as an actual deterrent.

Another reason for incarcerating Hovind is that he encourages others to commit tax crimes, so much so that on at least a couple of occasions other organizations issued warnings to not follow Hovind's tax advice because the actions he encouraged were illegal.

So in my opinion Hovind should be incarcerated, so it is only a question of how long. I think 5 years should do it.

I think it might be reasonable for Hovind's wife to receive no jail time at all, but it depends upon who she really is. Hovind is a master conman, and all within his sphere fall under his spell. Is Hovind's wife someone who dearly loves him and believes in him and would do anything this wonderful person doing the Lord's work all around the world says? Or is she as knowing and conniving as Hovind himself? Upon the answers to these questions should rest the decision of whether she serves time in jail. If she is Hovind's victim instead of his accomplice then she should serve no time.

That's how I see it.

--Percy


Replies to this message:
 Message 189 by subbie, posted 11-03-2006 11:00 AM Percy has not yet responded

subbie
Member (Idle past 295 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 189 of 308 (361094)
11-03-2006 11:00 AM
Reply to: Message 188 by Percy
11-03-2006 7:50 AM


Re: How I See It
If she is Hovind's victim instead of his accomplice then she should serve no time.

Her opportunity to present that argument, and evidence to support it, was at trial. From the reports I have seen, she made no such argument.

There will likely be something next called a "presentence investigation." This is an opportunity for the court to gather information that might be relevant for sentencing or disposition that might not otherwise have come out at trial. We'll see if anything along those lines comes out, but I'd be surprised. She strikes me as a stand-by-my-man kinda gal.


Those who would sacrifice an essential liberty for a temporary security will lose both, and deserve neither. -- Benjamin Franklin

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Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 16111
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 190 of 308 (361099)
11-03-2006 11:20 AM
Reply to: Message 160 by subbie
11-02-2006 7:43 AM


Re: Defenses and post trial options
In this case, if the basis for the Hovinds' claim that they didn't know they had to pay taxes was their belief they are not citizens of the U.S., that they are not persons, that the word "whoever" doesn't apply to them, and the other gigglers mentioned in this thread, well, it's up to the jury to decide whether those ideas are reasonble or not. But if I were a betting man, and I am, I'd be willing to lay long odds that the Hovinds are not going to walk out of that courtroom free people.

It is a defense in such cases to say that you were confused by the complexity of the tax laws. However, it has been decided that this does not cover belief in tax protestor nonsense. If you make your own confusion, you stand responsible for it.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 160 by subbie, posted 11-02-2006 7:43 AM subbie has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 191 by subbie, posted 11-03-2006 12:05 PM Dr Adequate has responded
 Message 193 by Taz, posted 11-03-2006 12:58 PM Dr Adequate has responded

subbie
Member (Idle past 295 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 191 of 308 (361108)
11-03-2006 12:05 PM
Reply to: Message 190 by Dr Adequate
11-03-2006 11:20 AM


Re: Defenses and post trial options
It is a defense in such cases to say that you were confused by the complexity of the tax laws.

Hard to see how this would apply to the Hovinds since, IIRC, they were visited on more than one occasion by IRS agents who told them that they had to pay.


Those who would sacrifice an essential liberty for a temporary security will lose both, and deserve neither. -- Benjamin Franklin

This message is a reply to:
 Message 190 by Dr Adequate, posted 11-03-2006 11:20 AM Dr Adequate has responded

Replies to this message:
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Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 16111
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 192 of 308 (361111)
11-03-2006 12:14 PM
Reply to: Message 191 by subbie
11-03-2006 12:05 PM


Re: Defenses and post trial options
It is not a defense in the Hovind case. I mentioned it only to contrast honest confusion with tax protestor BS.

This message is a reply to:
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Taz
Member (Idle past 1843 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 193 of 308 (361126)
11-03-2006 12:58 PM
Reply to: Message 190 by Dr Adequate
11-03-2006 11:20 AM


Re: Defenses and post trial options
What's so hard about it? Most of the rest of us can do taxes just fine, given that it's certainly one of the most annoying aspects of my life.

If Hovind is in touch with god, then he should be expected to be intellectually superior to at least a large portion of the rest and therefore wouldn't be confused by tax laws.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 190 by Dr Adequate, posted 11-03-2006 11:20 AM Dr Adequate has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 194 by dwise1, posted 11-03-2006 2:40 PM Taz has not yet responded
 Message 195 by Dr Adequate, posted 11-03-2006 4:56 PM Taz has not yet responded

dwise1
Member
Posts: 4194
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 194 of 308 (361143)
11-03-2006 2:40 PM
Reply to: Message 193 by Taz
11-03-2006 12:58 PM


Re: Defenses and post trial options
If Hovind is in touch with god, then he should be expected to be intellectually superior to at least a large portion of the rest and therefore wouldn't be confused by tax laws.

As he keeps boasting in his seminar tapes, he taught high school math and science for 15 years so he understands all those things. He's the self-proclaimed expert!


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Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 16111
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 195 of 308 (361187)
11-03-2006 4:56 PM
Reply to: Message 193 by Taz
11-03-2006 12:58 PM


Re: Defenses and post trial options
What's so hard about it? Most of the rest of us can do taxes just fine, given that it's certainly one of the most annoying aspects of my life.

If you just have an ordinary income on which you should pay ordinary income tax, then that defense wouldn't float. However, judges have ruled in certain cases that being muddled by the regulations is a defense, if one can show that the regulations are in fact confusing: since this is an argument that there was no mens rea.

This does not, of course, apply to Hovind.

---

Don't Americans have PAYE (Pay As You Earn)? I have never "done my taxes", my employer's always done it for me.


This message is a reply to:
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