Haggard Scandal

Of course, Iano. Have no illusions about who I am. I'm nothing apart from Him. I don't even need to say that. You don't even have to know me to know that about me by the simple fact that I'm completely fallible. I'm merely pointing out that Haggard has alot of people to face up to, but most importantly, he has to face God-- a terrifying prospect for us all. I guess only the spotless Lamb has any right to say a word.

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"The weapons of our warfare are not carnal but mighty in God for pulling down strongholds, casting down arguments and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God." -2^nd Corinthians 10:4-5

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You and I know that that is not the most shameful thing you have done. C'mon Schraf... fess up.

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The thing that you are most ashamed of.

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Why do you suppose that this is any of your business, or something I would choose to publish on the internet?On the other hand, if I was a national leader, actively compaigning against what I and my group consider to be Shameful Act X, you would have every right to question me regarding my participation in Shameful Act X, and be outraged if I was caught engaging in Shameful Act X.You quite justifiably could conclude that I was a hypocrite.

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No its not. But Faith and me and millions of others testify. The testimony of millions doesn't count either I take it.

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Millions of people believe in astrology, too.Millions of people, at one time, also believed that Saddam Hussein was responsible for the planes that were flown into the WTC.Millions of people, more people than believe in your religion, believe in the godless teachings of Buddhism.Does this mean that astrology is true, that there actually is firm evidence that Saddam Hussein ordered the WTC bombings, and that Buddhism is the One True Religion?

That's wonderful, Shraf. Alot of people have been ravaged by those very things. Could've been me. I didn't grow up under any strict upbringing. My parents were push-overs. I did whatever I wanted for the most part. That was part of the problem. First of all, nobody is wagging their finger at you or anyone else. If someone gives their opinion on how they feel about God's Law, then that's our opinion, (not that I speak on behalf of Faith or Iano or anyone else). You can do whatever you want. But there are consequences. Haggard found that out the hard way, as I imagine we've all been spanked by life at some point. Thirdly, judging us as worse than anyone else is a dangerous thing to do because it makes you the judge on what's better or worse behavior. That's kind of like saying we aren't sinners because when compared to Jeffery Dahmer, we're all saints. That's just not how it works. The reality is we've all wronged. Fourthly, and in my opinion, the most important factor, Iano, Faith and I told you personal things about ourselves that we didn't have to share. We told you those things because they were wrong and we fully admit fault and thank God for His grace and mercy. Its a great testimony, and I'm glad that Faith and Iano shared that with us. The sole difference is when a person refuses to admit fault or to play-down the things they've done. Its the pride of refusing to acknowledge one's sins. That's the noticeable difference that I see.

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"The weapons of our warfare are not carnal but mighty in God for pulling down strongholds, casting down arguments and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God." -2^nd Corinthians 10:4-5

I talked a civilian neighbor into enlisting so I could sleep with his wife.But I did have Biblical precedent for that, so maybe it wasn't the most shameful.Maybe it was when I was 10, and I called a close black friend nigger so I could fit in with the white kids that were there that day. He gave me a long, slow look, and then just walked away. I think it was the first time I realized I had broken someone's heart. Yeah, that's it.Drugs and sex are innocent hijinks compared to how we willfully hurt one another. I don't regret a single trip or stolen kiss, but I wish I could go back and spare that heart.I bet right now Haggard most regrets the pain he has caused to his wife and family. He may worry about answering to his maker, but the shame that stays with you starts in a loved one's eyes.

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You're completely right about Haggard. It's just that the feeding frenzy of the oh-so-pure Pharisaical atheists among us prompts me to wallow in the fact of Christians being sinners. There is nothing self-righteous about preaching against sin, whether one has committed a particular sin or not that one preaches against. I'm also not sure that it's right to call it hypocrisy either to preach against a sin he himself fell into, especially if it was a first-time fall. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Maybe there are, maybe there isn't. It seems to me that if you want to use the consequences as a basis for intercepting another person's behavior, you're under an obligation to prove there actually will be consequences.I'm sorry that you couldn't toke a joint without becoming a hard-living, boozing, whoring drunk or whatever. But far too often, busybody moralists are essentially trying to outlaw steak because babies can't chew it (that's a metaphor.) Some people can handle the consequences of their behavior, or even avoid them entirely. And to a great extent, you don't have any right to be concerned about the consequences to anybody but yourself. I'm with Schraf on this. I don't recall anything in my past that I'm particularly ashamed of. Nothing I can think of that wasn't either a natural reaction to the situation or the best decision based on what I knew at the time. Or simply part of growing up.It's not pride; I'm simply unwilling to invent some fictious moral crime on my part so I can join your little sharing circle. Atheists are just typically more moral than believers, that's all.

Quick Bible quiz. Which of these are the words of Jesus?1) Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.
2) Hey, if we had to be sinless to cast stones, we'd never get anything done! Stone that bitch!

Yikes! A Biblical precedent for sleeping with a man's wife? Did you not actually commit the act? That couldn't have been a good feeling.... for either of you. I hear you. I guess there is no way of finding him again. Even if he lived two doors down you still might not recognize him to tell him that you were sorry for that. Yeah. I mean, I don't know who they are or how they live, but I'd venture to say that they are innocent victims of his trysts. They must be in a state of confusion.

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"The weapons of our warfare are not carnal but mighty in God for pulling down strongholds, casting down arguments and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God." -2^nd Corinthians 10:4-5

You are one lousy psychoanalyst. I wasn't dissatisfied with myself for any of my sins UNTIL I encountered God. I was not at ALL attracted to a "strict moral code" even then. I simply had to acknowledge in the end that God's Law held me in condemnation for things I'd indulged in and excused all my life. Having one's past expunged from the records doesn't count in THIS life I hope you know. Our sins can be paraded before us here and now at any time. It's only in eternity, in God's eyes that they are expunged. Since you don't believe in God I doubt you can imagine the attraction of THAT idea as you claim. That's the point. We can't be self-righteous because we know where we've been. I'm sure most of the posters at EvC have lived a more upright life than I have. But you don't seem to be able to read people at all. NOBODY has been "wagging any fingers." We tell you what God's law says, for your own good. Your morally careful life is not going to save you. God's windmills grind exceeding fine and sin is something we all habitually commit in our hearts all the time. It's not just the gross stuff we will be judged on.

Well, I think we all knew that would happen. The timing of the scandal couldn't possibly have been coincidental. Just remember that they're sinners too, and that we aren't measured by Christians, we are measured by Christ. I disagree with you here. He is a hypocrite, but then again, we've been a bit hypocritical in life. That's why only the spotless Lamb is able to judge us. Its okay for you to be angry at the political motivation for the story and its okay for you to be upset at Haggard for blackening our eyes by default. I would say just don't forget that we aren't measured by Christians, but by Christ.I try to disassociate my political beliefs from my spiritual beliefs. Jesus isn't a Conservative and He isn't a Liberal. He might be a Moderate though.

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"The weapons of our warfare are not carnal but mighty in God for pulling down strongholds, casting down arguments and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God." -2^nd Corinthians 10:4-5

You are right. Drugs and sex, some sex anyway, but drugs for sure, are just hijinks compared to some sins. I don't think I did anything admirable by talking about my drug experience. It's easy to talk about that. In fact I almost bragged about it. I know it was sin but I don't feel the offense of it the way I feel some other things in my life, the really shameful things, that I'm not prepared to talk about here. I appreciate your confession a lot more than mine.

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I'm also not sure that it's right to call it hypocrisy either to preach against a sin he himself fell into, especially if it was a first-time fall.

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I guess, then, that you have made your own special definition of the word, Faith.Using your definition, I suppose it means that when Rush Limbaugh, after stating many times that drug addicts should be locked up and we should throw away the key, isn't actually a hypocrite for seeking treatment instead of demanding that the state imprison him for the rest of his life?Do you think that Haggert just "accidentally" visited a male prostitude repeatedly over the course of three years? Do you think that he had no awareness of the fact that he was leading this secret gay lifestyle while simultaneously actively campaigning to put in place a national policy that was very anti-gay?I mean, I just don't know what could be more hypocritical.Well, maybe Foley.Or the Bush's one-time advisor and important FDA Committee member on reproductive health, Dr. W. David Hager, OB/GYN, also an Evangelical Christian and moralizer on sexual matters. He analy raped his narcoleptic wife, repeatedly, until she divorced him.There are many more.

OK he's a hypocrite. So am I.

duplicateEdited by Faith, : No reason given.