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Author | Topic: Haggard Scandal | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Hyroglyphx Inactive Member |
Do you find it insuperable? For if you do... Earlier you correctly saw the root of all sin as pride. You denounce pride here. Do you engage in it yourself (ie: do you sin)? Of course, Iano. Have no illusions about who I am. I'm nothing apart from Him. I don't even need to say that. You don't even have to know me to know that about me by the simple fact that I'm completely fallible. I'm merely pointing out that Haggard has alot of people to face up to, but most importantly, he has to face God-- a terrifying prospect for us all. I guess only the spotless Lamb has any right to say a word. "The weapons of our warfare are not carnal but mighty in God for pulling down strongholds, casting down arguments and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God." -2nd Corinthians 10:4-5
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nator Member (Idle past 2196 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: Why do you suppose that this is any of your business, or something I would choose to publish on the internet? On the other hand, if I was a national leader, actively compaigning against what I and my group consider to be Shameful Act X, you would have every right to question me regarding my participation in Shameful Act X, and be outraged if I was caught engaging in Shameful Act X. You quite justifiably could conclude that I was a hypocrite.
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nator Member (Idle past 2196 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: Millions of people believe in astrology, too. Millions of people, at one time, also believed that Saddam Hussein was responsible for the planes that were flown into the WTC. Millions of people, more people than believe in your religion, believe in the godless teachings of Buddhism. Does this mean that astrology is true, that there actually is firm evidence that Saddam Hussein ordered the WTC bombings, and that Buddhism is the One True Religion?
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Hyroglyphx Inactive Member |
You know, I've never done any of that crazy, self-destructive, dangerous shit that you, Iano, and Faith did. I've never smoked tobacco, nor pot, and I've never even had a hangover. Never had unprotected sex (Really. Not ever, not even once), waited until I was in love and in a long-term relationship to engage in sex. That's wonderful, Shraf. Alot of people have been ravaged by those very things. Could've been me.
I can certainly understand why all of you might be attracted to some kind of an imposition of a strict moral code if you were dissatisfied with the paths your lives had taken. I didn't grow up under any strict upbringing. My parents were push-overs. I did whatever I wanted for the most part. That was part of the problem.
All of you social conservatives, wagging your fingers at the rest of us, lecturing us on the proper way to live, and yet you three seem to have already done more wild, illegal stuff than all of my supposedly "loose-moraled liberal" friends and aquaintences put together. First of all, nobody is wagging their finger at you or anyone else. If someone gives their opinion on how they feel about God's Law, then that's our opinion, (not that I speak on behalf of Faith or Iano or anyone else). You can do whatever you want. But there are consequences. Haggard found that out the hard way, as I imagine we've all been spanked by life at some point. Thirdly, judging us as worse than anyone else is a dangerous thing to do because it makes you the judge on what's better or worse behavior. That's kind of like saying we aren't sinners because when compared to Jeffery Dahmer, we're all saints. That's just not how it works. The reality is we've all wronged. Fourthly, and in my opinion, the most important factor, Iano, Faith and I told you personal things about ourselves that we didn't have to share. We told you those things because they were wrong and we fully admit fault and thank God for His grace and mercy. Its a great testimony, and I'm glad that Faith and Iano shared that with us. The sole difference is when a person refuses to admit fault or to play-down the things they've done. Its the pride of refusing to acknowledge one's sins. That's the noticeable difference that I see. "The weapons of our warfare are not carnal but mighty in God for pulling down strongholds, casting down arguments and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God." -2nd Corinthians 10:4-5
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Omnivorous Member Posts: 3988 From: Adirondackia Joined: Member Rating: 6.9 |
iano writes: By the way: the most shameful thing that you have ever done in your life? What was that? I talked a civilian neighbor into enlisting so I could sleep with his wife. But I did have Biblical precedent for that, so maybe it wasn't the most shameful. Maybe it was when I was 10, and I called a close black friend nigger so I could fit in with the white kids that were there that day. He gave me a long, slow look, and then just walked away. I think it was the first time I realized I had broken someone's heart. Yeah, that's it. Drugs and sex are innocent hijinks compared to how we willfully hurt one another. I don't regret a single trip or stolen kiss, but I wish I could go back and spare that heart. I bet right now Haggard most regrets the pain he has caused to his wife and family. He may worry about answering to his maker, but the shame that stays with you starts in a loved one's eyes. Drinking when we are not thirsty and making love at any time, madam, is all that distinguishes us from the other animals. -Pierre De Beaumarchais (1732-1799)
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1470 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
You're completely right about Haggard. It's just that the feeding frenzy of the oh-so-pure Pharisaical atheists among us prompts me to wallow in the fact of Christians being sinners. There is nothing self-righteous about preaching against sin, whether one has committed a particular sin or not that one preaches against. I'm also not sure that it's right to call it hypocrisy either to preach against a sin he himself fell into, especially if it was a first-time fall.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 1493 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
But there are consequences. Maybe there are, maybe there isn't. It seems to me that if you want to use the consequences as a basis for intercepting another person's behavior, you're under an obligation to prove there actually will be consequences. I'm sorry that you couldn't toke a joint without becoming a hard-living, boozing, whoring drunk or whatever. But far too often, busybody moralists are essentially trying to outlaw steak because babies can't chew it (that's a metaphor.) Some people can handle the consequences of their behavior, or even avoid them entirely. And to a great extent, you don't have any right to be concerned about the consequences to anybody but yourself.
Its the pride of refusing to acknowledge one's sins. I'm with Schraf on this. I don't recall anything in my past that I'm particularly ashamed of. Nothing I can think of that wasn't either a natural reaction to the situation or the best decision based on what I knew at the time. Or simply part of growing up. It's not pride; I'm simply unwilling to invent some fictious moral crime on my part so I can join your little sharing circle. Atheists are just typically more moral than believers, that's all.
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 1493 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
We must suppose that there can be no lawmakers given that everyone hides stuff behind a front. The only lawmakers we can have are those who do not: - speed in their vehicles- drink and drive - hit their wives/husbands - take meth/coke/herion/hash/lsd/mushroom/crack/drink - shoplift - default on mortgages - dodge their taxes - pour thinners down the sink etc.etc.etc... ...you see the extent of the problem when it comes to recruiting lawmakers don't you. Quick Bible quiz. Which of these are the words of Jesus? 1) Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.2) Hey, if we had to be sinless to cast stones, we'd never get anything done! Stone that bitch!
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Hyroglyphx Inactive Member |
I talked a civilian neighbor into enlisting so I could sleep with his wife. Yikes!
But I did have Biblical precedent for that, so maybe it wasn't the most shameful. A Biblical precedent for sleeping with a man's wife? Did you not actually commit the act?
Maybe it was when I was 10, and I called a close black friend nigger so I could fit in with the white kids that were there that day. He gave me a long, slow look, and then just walked away. I think it was the first time I realized I had broken someone's heart. Yeah, that's it. That couldn't have been a good feeling.... for either of you.
Drugs and sex are innocent hijinks compared to how we willfully hurt one another. I don't regret a single trip or stolen kiss, but I wish I could go back and spare that heart. I hear you. I guess there is no way of finding him again. Even if he lived two doors down you still might not recognize him to tell him that you were sorry for that.
I bet right now Haggard most regrets the pain he has caused to his wife and family. He may worry about answering to his maker, but the shame that stays with you starts in a loved one's eyes. Yeah. I mean, I don't know who they are or how they live, but I'd venture to say that they are innocent victims of his trysts. They must be in a state of confusion. "The weapons of our warfare are not carnal but mighty in God for pulling down strongholds, casting down arguments and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God." -2nd Corinthians 10:4-5
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1470 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
I can certainly understand why all of you might be attracted to some kind of an imposition of a strict moral code if you were dissatisfied with the paths your lives had taken. I can also readily imagine the attraction of the idea of having all of your past debauchery expunged from the records, so to speak. You are one lousy psychoanalyst. I wasn't dissatisfied with myself for any of my sins UNTIL I encountered God. I was not at ALL attracted to a "strict moral code" even then. I simply had to acknowledge in the end that God's Law held me in condemnation for things I'd indulged in and excused all my life. Having one's past expunged from the records doesn't count in THIS life I hope you know. Our sins can be paraded before us here and now at any time. It's only in eternity, in God's eyes that they are expunged. Since you don't believe in God I doubt you can imagine the attraction of THAT idea as you claim.
All of you social conservatives, wagging your fingers at the rest of us, lecturing us on the proper way to live, and yet you three seem to have already done more wild, illegal stuff than all of my supposedly "loose-moraled liberal" friends and aquaintences put together. That's the point. We can't be self-righteous because we know where we've been. I'm sure most of the posters at EvC have lived a more upright life than I have. But you don't seem to be able to read people at all. NOBODY has been "wagging any fingers." We tell you what God's law says, for your own good. Your morally careful life is not going to save you. God's windmills grind exceeding fine and sin is something we all habitually commit in our hearts all the time. It's not just the gross stuff we will be judged on.
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Hyroglyphx Inactive Member |
You're completely right about Haggard. It's just that the feeding frenzy of the oh-so-pure Pharisaical atheists among us prompts me to wallow in the fact of Christians being sinners. Well, I think we all knew that would happen. The timing of the scandal couldn't possibly have been coincidental. Just remember that they're sinners too, and that we aren't measured by Christians, we are measured by Christ.
There is nothing self-righteous about preaching against sin, whether one has committed a particular sin or not that one preaches against. I'm also not sure that it's right to call it hypocrisy either to preach against a sin he himself fell into, especially if it was a first-time fall. I disagree with you here. He is a hypocrite, but then again, we've been a bit hypocritical in life. That's why only the spotless Lamb is able to judge us. Its okay for you to be angry at the political motivation for the story and its okay for you to be upset at Haggard for blackening our eyes by default. I would say just don't forget that we aren't measured by Christians, but by Christ. I try to disassociate my political beliefs from my spiritual beliefs. Jesus isn't a Conservative and He isn't a Liberal. He might be a Moderate though. "The weapons of our warfare are not carnal but mighty in God for pulling down strongholds, casting down arguments and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God." -2nd Corinthians 10:4-5
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1470 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
You are right. Drugs and sex, some sex anyway, but drugs for sure, are just hijinks compared to some sins. I don't think I did anything admirable by talking about my drug experience. It's easy to talk about that. In fact I almost bragged about it. I know it was sin but I don't feel the offense of it the way I feel some other things in my life, the really shameful things, that I'm not prepared to talk about here. I appreciate your confession a lot more than mine.
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nator Member (Idle past 2196 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: I guess, then, that you have made your own special definition of the word, Faith. Using your definition, I suppose it means that when Rush Limbaugh, after stating many times that drug addicts should be locked up and we should throw away the key, isn't actually a hypocrite for seeking treatment instead of demanding that the state imprison him for the rest of his life? Do you think that Haggert just "accidentally" visited a male prostitude repeatedly over the course of three years? Do you think that he had no awareness of the fact that he was leading this secret gay lifestyle while simultaneously actively campaigning to put in place a national policy that was very anti-gay? I mean, I just don't know what could be more hypocritical. Well, maybe Foley. Or the Bush's one-time advisor and important FDA Committee member on reproductive health, Dr. W. David Hager, OB/GYN, also an Evangelical Christian and moralizer on sexual matters. He analy raped his narcoleptic wife, repeatedly, until she divorced him. There are many more.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1470 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
OK he's a hypocrite. So am I.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1470 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
duplicate
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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