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Author | Topic: Haggard Scandal | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
nator Member (Idle past 2169 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: ROTFLMAO!!!!! "It's for your own good, and if you don't do what we say, you're going to burn in hell!" Faith, that is a perfect example of you "wagging your finger at me", admonishing me to shape up or else. It's funny enough to use as a sig file.
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Hyroglyphx Inactive Member |
It seems to me that if you want to use the consequences as a basis for intercepting another person's behavior, you're under an obligation to prove there actually will be consequences. You don't think he's reaping the consequences? He's been virtually excommunicated. He'll never pastor again, he might lose his marriage over it, everyone will look upon on him as the Christian who hypocritically slept with gay prostitutes while doing meth. I think that's pretty significant. And it may get worse with time.
I'm sorry that you couldn't toke a joint without becoming a hard-living, boozing, whoring drunk or whatever. But far too often, busybody moralists are essentially trying to outlaw steak because babies can't chew it (that's a metaphor.) Some people can handle the consequences of their behavior, or even avoid them entirely. And to a great extent, you don't have any right to be concerned about the consequences to anybody but yourself. So, you're saying that if smoked Meth and had sexual escapades with homosexual prostitutes in moderation it would have been better? also, you don't think his behavior is accountable to his family or his church? He's let alot of people down and have broken the hearts of those closest to him.
I'm with Schraf on this. I don't recall anything in my past that I'm particularly ashamed of. I think that's the very problem. There's a reason why the Bible uses leprosy to symbolize sin. Leprosy starts off as an insignificant spot on the skin. After time, it grows bigger and becomes uncontrollable. Pretty soon you have no feeling left in your body as the disease has ravaged your nerve endings. Sin works in the same way. It starts out as a harmless toke, a little sex, one beer. Nobody becomes a killer for no reason. Nobody becomes a rapist for no reason. Nobody becomes a drunk without that first sip. Nobody can get to sixy miles an hour without first hitting each successive speed first. Sin works the same way. After a while, you keep doing it, you lose all sense of right and wrong and become calloused to it. By then, we might find ourselves in total denial. The wages of sin are death. I believe that verse. I've seen it first hand.
Nothing I can think of that wasn't either a natural reaction to the situation or the best decision based on what I knew at the time. Or simply part of growing up. I agree with that, and from a worldly view I know exactly what you're saying. There is certainly some measure to that as even Solomon asks God not to judge him on his youthful indiscretions.
It's not pride; I'm simply unwilling to invent some fictious moral crime on my part so I can join your little sharing circle. Atheists are just typically more moral than believers, that's all. In order to be moral, one would first have to live by an established set of parameters. And if we all march to our own beat who then can fault me on anything? "The weapons of our warfare are not carnal but mighty in God for pulling down strongholds, casting down arguments and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God." -2nd Corinthians 10:4-5
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Well I haven't believed the story of the three years, but if it's true then I have to agree that that is certainly hypocrisy. He should have stepped down from the pulpit long ago.
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nator Member (Idle past 2169 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: Jesus was a pretty radical Liberal in a lot of ways. He was anti-business wealth and greed. He was big into compassion and "he who is without sin can cast the first stone" is pretty famous. He blessed the peacemakers, and admonished his followers to turn the other cheek to those who would do us evil. He commanded, "love thy neighbor as thyself" and encouraged people to support the poor, even saying that his followers should sell everything they have and give it to the poor. He encouraged people to "render unto Caesar what is Caesar's"
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Jesus is different from a Liberal in that He never suggested that people should be FORCED by the government to do all those good things. Obedience to God is an individual thing.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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nator Member (Idle past 2169 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: I don't know if the three years thing is true; I suspect it will all come out sooner rather than later, as there is evidence out there. But he has thus far been so incredibly transparent in his lying about it, and his story continues to morph and change each time evidence comes forward, that I am not apt to believe anything he says. Years ago I read a series of Harper's articles about him and his ministry, and it was quite chilling.
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nator Member (Idle past 2169 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: But he believed in all of those Liberal principles as good and righteous things to do, which would earn great rewards in heaven. They should therefore really be called Christian, as well as Liberal principles, I suppose. Maybe you should remember that the next time you start to slag off on Liberal values.
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jar Member (Idle past 394 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Today Jesus would likely be a Taoist and certainly would have nothing to do with the Fundie or Evangelical folk. He sure in hell wouldn't be a conservative as they exist today.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Haggard and his New Life church represent a brand of Christianity I'm not much in favor of myself, and one thing wrong with it is that its preaching is likely to be borderline worldly in order to attract unbelievers, and soft on sin among believers. But I doubt that's what you found chilling.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
All those "liberal" values are for individuals, not for the state to enforce. That's all I'm saying. They are certainly Christian principles for believers to obey.
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Hyroglyphx Inactive Member |
Jesus was a pretty radical Liberal in a lot of ways. A radical liberal?
He was anti-business wealth and greed. Jesus undoubtedly was anti-greed and wealth, not buisness. Jesus was a carpenter. He wasn't paid in hugs. There is nothing wrong with working for your earnings. His own parables speak about it.
He was big into compassion and "he who is without sin can cast the first stone" is pretty famous. Uh-huh. But not one liberal has admitted even one sin in here and three conservatives have offered that information unsolicited. And you also forgot the last part of that verse. "Go and sin no more." Again, Jesus isn't a political figure, He's the Son of God. And yes, Conservatives shouldn't lose sight of that.
He blessed the peacemakers, and admonished his followers to turn the other cheek to those who would do us evil. He commanded, "love thy neighbor as thyself" and encouraged people to support the poor, even saying that his followers should sell everything they have and give it to the poor. He encouraged people to "render unto Caesar what is Caesar's" Right. I'm still not seeing how these liberal traits or conservative traits. "The weapons of our warfare are not carnal but mighty in God for pulling down strongholds, casting down arguments and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God." -2nd Corinthians 10:4-5
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nator Member (Idle past 2169 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: OK, now I'm confused. I thought that you WANTED the state to enforce christian principles?
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nator Member (Idle past 2169 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: Sorry about my poor sentence structure. He was against the idea of businesses being greedy and in having a lot of wealth and power.
quote: So?
quote: I don't think that anyone would characterize Conservatives as "peacemaking pacifists", do you?
quote: I don't see many conservatives looking to increase assistance to the poor, do you? When was the last time conservatives supported an increase in the minimum wage, or an increase in welfare funding, or low-income urban housing initiatives?
quote: Conservatives cut taxes to mainly the rich, even while spending huge sums during wartime.
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1405 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
You're completely right about Haggard. It's just that the feeding frenzy of the oh-so-pure Pharisaical atheists among us ... For me, what it is about is an elected president of a group of people who supposedly set a moral example ... the sheer hypocrisy of it. It's not because he is christian per se but the fact that he privatly does what he publicly denounces. He chose to run for President of the National Association of Evangelicals(NAE), knowing that he was a hypocrite. You can make assumptions and bad mouth people here all you want, but as soon as one of yours is shown to be a hypocrite and it's all apologetics eh? Doublethink much? Edited by AdminJar, : fix quotebox we are limited in our ability to understand by our ability to understand RebelAAmericanOZen[Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share.
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nator Member (Idle past 2169 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: No. I found what many of the church members said to be chilling. One of them suggested to the reporter, a NYC resident and native, that it would be great to blow that city up because of all the sin in it. He was completely serious. Kind of reminds one of what happened on that clear, sunny day in September a few years ago.
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