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Author Topic:   Haggard Scandal
nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 61 of 302 (361320)
11-03-2006 10:05 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by Faith
11-03-2006 9:41 PM


Re: Drugs
quote:
NOBODY has been "wagging any fingers." We tell you what God's law says, for your own good. Your morally careful life is not going to save you. God's windmills grind exceeding fine and sin is something we all habitually commit in our hearts all the time. It's not just the gross stuff we will be judged on.
ROTFLMAO!!!!!
"It's for your own good, and if you don't do what we say, you're going to burn in hell!"
Faith, that is a perfect example of you "wagging your finger at me", admonishing me to shape up or else.
It's funny enough to use as a sig file.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by Faith, posted 11-03-2006 9:41 PM Faith has not replied

Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 62 of 302 (361321)
11-03-2006 10:08 PM
Reply to: Message 52 by crashfrog
11-03-2006 9:32 PM


Re: Drugs
It seems to me that if you want to use the consequences as a basis for intercepting another person's behavior, you're under an obligation to prove there actually will be consequences.
You don't think he's reaping the consequences? He's been virtually excommunicated. He'll never pastor again, he might lose his marriage over it, everyone will look upon on him as the Christian who hypocritically slept with gay prostitutes while doing meth. I think that's pretty significant. And it may get worse with time.
I'm sorry that you couldn't toke a joint without becoming a hard-living, boozing, whoring drunk or whatever. But far too often, busybody moralists are essentially trying to outlaw steak because babies can't chew it (that's a metaphor.) Some people can handle the consequences of their behavior, or even avoid them entirely. And to a great extent, you don't have any right to be concerned about the consequences to anybody but yourself.
So, you're saying that if smoked Meth and had sexual escapades with homosexual prostitutes in moderation it would have been better? also, you don't think his behavior is accountable to his family or his church? He's let alot of people down and have broken the hearts of those closest to him.
I'm with Schraf on this. I don't recall anything in my past that I'm particularly ashamed of.
I think that's the very problem. There's a reason why the Bible uses leprosy to symbolize sin. Leprosy starts off as an insignificant spot on the skin. After time, it grows bigger and becomes uncontrollable. Pretty soon you have no feeling left in your body as the disease has ravaged your nerve endings. Sin works in the same way. It starts out as a harmless toke, a little sex, one beer. Nobody becomes a killer for no reason. Nobody becomes a rapist for no reason. Nobody becomes a drunk without that first sip. Nobody can get to sixy miles an hour without first hitting each successive speed first. Sin works the same way. After a while, you keep doing it, you lose all sense of right and wrong and become calloused to it. By then, we might find ourselves in total denial. The wages of sin are death. I believe that verse. I've seen it first hand.
Nothing I can think of that wasn't either a natural reaction to the situation or the best decision based on what I knew at the time. Or simply part of growing up.
I agree with that, and from a worldly view I know exactly what you're saying. There is certainly some measure to that as even Solomon asks God not to judge him on his youthful indiscretions.
It's not pride; I'm simply unwilling to invent some fictious moral crime on my part so I can join your little sharing circle. Atheists are just typically more moral than believers, that's all.
In order to be moral, one would first have to live by an established set of parameters. And if we all march to our own beat who then can fault me on anything?

"The weapons of our warfare are not carnal but mighty in God for pulling down strongholds, casting down arguments and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God." -2nd Corinthians 10:4-5

This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by crashfrog, posted 11-03-2006 9:32 PM crashfrog has not replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 63 of 302 (361322)
11-03-2006 10:08 PM
Reply to: Message 58 by nator
11-03-2006 9:58 PM


Re: Drugs
Well I haven't believed the story of the three years, but if it's true then I have to agree that that is certainly hypocrisy. He should have stepped down from the pulpit long ago.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by nator, posted 11-03-2006 9:58 PM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 66 by nator, posted 11-03-2006 10:23 PM Faith has replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 64 of 302 (361323)
11-03-2006 10:17 PM
Reply to: Message 56 by Hyroglyphx
11-03-2006 9:47 PM


Re: Drugs
quote:
Jesus isn't a Conservative and He isn't a Liberal.
Jesus was a pretty radical Liberal in a lot of ways.
He was anti-business wealth and greed.
He was big into compassion and "he who is without sin can cast the first stone" is pretty famous.
He blessed the peacemakers, and admonished his followers to turn the other cheek to those who would do us evil.
He commanded, "love thy neighbor as thyself" and encouraged people to support the poor, even saying that his followers should sell everything they have and give it to the poor.
He encouraged people to "render unto Caesar what is Caesar's"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by Hyroglyphx, posted 11-03-2006 9:47 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 65 by Faith, posted 11-03-2006 10:20 PM nator has replied
 Message 68 by jar, posted 11-03-2006 10:29 PM nator has not replied
 Message 71 by Hyroglyphx, posted 11-03-2006 10:35 PM nator has replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 65 of 302 (361324)
11-03-2006 10:20 PM
Reply to: Message 64 by nator
11-03-2006 10:17 PM


Re: Drugs
Jesus is different from a Liberal in that He never suggested that people should be FORCED by the government to do all those good things. Obedience to God is an individual thing.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by nator, posted 11-03-2006 10:17 PM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 67 by nator, posted 11-03-2006 10:27 PM Faith has replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 66 of 302 (361325)
11-03-2006 10:23 PM
Reply to: Message 63 by Faith
11-03-2006 10:08 PM


Re: Drugs
quote:
Well I haven't believed the story of the three years, but if it's true then I have to agree that that is certainly hypocrisy. He should have stepped down from the pulpit long ago.
I don't know if the three years thing is true; I suspect it will all come out sooner rather than later, as there is evidence out there.
But he has thus far been so incredibly transparent in his lying about it, and his story continues to morph and change each time evidence comes forward, that I am not apt to believe anything he says.
Years ago I read a series of Harper's articles about him and his ministry, and it was quite chilling.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 63 by Faith, posted 11-03-2006 10:08 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 69 by Faith, posted 11-03-2006 10:30 PM nator has replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 67 of 302 (361326)
11-03-2006 10:27 PM
Reply to: Message 65 by Faith
11-03-2006 10:20 PM


Re: Drugs
quote:
Jesus is different from a Liberal in that He never suggested that people should be FORCED by the government to do all those good things.
But he believed in all of those Liberal principles as good and righteous things to do, which would earn great rewards in heaven. They should therefore really be called Christian, as well as Liberal principles, I suppose.
Maybe you should remember that the next time you start to slag off on Liberal values.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by Faith, posted 11-03-2006 10:20 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 70 by Faith, posted 11-03-2006 10:31 PM nator has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 68 of 302 (361327)
11-03-2006 10:29 PM
Reply to: Message 64 by nator
11-03-2006 10:17 PM


Jesus?
Today Jesus would likely be a Taoist and certainly would have nothing to do with the Fundie or Evangelical folk. He sure in hell wouldn't be a conservative as they exist today.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by nator, posted 11-03-2006 10:17 PM nator has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 87 by tsig, posted 11-04-2006 6:47 AM jar has replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 69 of 302 (361328)
11-03-2006 10:30 PM
Reply to: Message 66 by nator
11-03-2006 10:23 PM


Re: Drugs
Haggard and his New Life church represent a brand of Christianity I'm not much in favor of myself, and one thing wrong with it is that its preaching is likely to be borderline worldly in order to attract unbelievers, and soft on sin among believers. But I doubt that's what you found chilling.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 66 by nator, posted 11-03-2006 10:23 PM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 75 by nator, posted 11-03-2006 11:18 PM Faith has replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 70 of 302 (361331)
11-03-2006 10:31 PM
Reply to: Message 67 by nator
11-03-2006 10:27 PM


Re: Drugs
All those "liberal" values are for individuals, not for the state to enforce. That's all I'm saying. They are certainly Christian principles for believers to obey.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by nator, posted 11-03-2006 10:27 PM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 72 by nator, posted 11-03-2006 11:04 PM Faith has not replied

Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 71 of 302 (361332)
11-03-2006 10:35 PM
Reply to: Message 64 by nator
11-03-2006 10:17 PM


Re: Drugs
Jesus was a pretty radical Liberal in a lot of ways.
A radical liberal?
He was anti-business wealth and greed.
Jesus undoubtedly was anti-greed and wealth, not buisness. Jesus was a carpenter. He wasn't paid in hugs. There is nothing wrong with working for your earnings. His own parables speak about it.
He was big into compassion and "he who is without sin can cast the first stone" is pretty famous.
Uh-huh. But not one liberal has admitted even one sin in here and three conservatives have offered that information unsolicited. And you also forgot the last part of that verse. "Go and sin no more." Again, Jesus isn't a political figure, He's the Son of God. And yes, Conservatives shouldn't lose sight of that.
He blessed the peacemakers, and admonished his followers to turn the other cheek to those who would do us evil.
He commanded, "love thy neighbor as thyself" and encouraged people to support the poor, even saying that his followers should sell everything they have and give it to the poor.
He encouraged people to "render unto Caesar what is Caesar's"
Right. I'm still not seeing how these liberal traits or conservative traits.

"The weapons of our warfare are not carnal but mighty in God for pulling down strongholds, casting down arguments and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God." -2nd Corinthians 10:4-5

This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by nator, posted 11-03-2006 10:17 PM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 73 by nator, posted 11-03-2006 11:13 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 72 of 302 (361338)
11-03-2006 11:04 PM
Reply to: Message 70 by Faith
11-03-2006 10:31 PM


Re: Drugs
quote:
All those "liberal" values are for individuals, not for the state to enforce. That's all I'm saying. They are certainly Christian principles
OK, now I'm confused.
I thought that you WANTED the state to enforce christian principles?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 70 by Faith, posted 11-03-2006 10:31 PM Faith has not replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 73 of 302 (361340)
11-03-2006 11:13 PM
Reply to: Message 71 by Hyroglyphx
11-03-2006 10:35 PM


Re: Drugs
quote:
Jesus undoubtedly was anti-greed and wealth, not buisness.
Sorry about my poor sentence structure.
He was against the idea of businesses being greedy and in having a lot of wealth and power.
quote:
But not one liberal has admitted even one sin in here and three conservatives have offered that information unsolicited.
So?
quote:
He blessed the peacemakers, and admonished his followers to turn the other cheek to those who would do us evil.
I don't think that anyone would characterize Conservatives as "peacemaking pacifists", do you?
quote:
He commanded, "love thy neighbor as thyself" and encouraged people to support the poor, even saying that his followers should sell everything they have and give it to the poor.
I don't see many conservatives looking to increase assistance to the poor, do you? When was the last time conservatives supported an increase in the minimum wage, or an increase in welfare funding, or low-income urban housing initiatives?
quote:
He encouraged people to "render unto Caesar what is Caesar's"
Conservatives cut taxes to mainly the rich, even while spending huge sums during wartime.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by Hyroglyphx, posted 11-03-2006 10:35 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied

RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 74 of 302 (361341)
11-03-2006 11:14 PM
Reply to: Message 51 by Faith
11-03-2006 9:31 PM


not Drugs but certainly on SOMETHING ...
You're completely right about Haggard. It's just that the feeding frenzy of the oh-so-pure Pharisaical atheists among us ...
For me, what it is about is an elected president of a group of people who supposedly set a moral example ... the sheer hypocrisy of it.
It's not because he is christian per se but the fact that he privatly does what he publicly denounces.
He chose to run for President of the National Association of Evangelicals(NAE), knowing that he was a hypocrite.
You can make assumptions and bad mouth people here all you want, but as soon as one of yours is shown to be a hypocrite and it's all apologetics eh?
Doublethink much?
Edited by AdminJar, : fix quotebox

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by Faith, posted 11-03-2006 9:31 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 78 by Faith, posted 11-03-2006 11:30 PM RAZD has replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 75 of 302 (361342)
11-03-2006 11:18 PM
Reply to: Message 69 by Faith
11-03-2006 10:30 PM


chilling
quote:
But I doubt that's what you found chilling.
No.
I found what many of the church members said to be chilling.
One of them suggested to the reporter, a NYC resident and native, that it would be great to blow that city up because of all the sin in it.
He was completely serious.
Kind of reminds one of what happened on that clear, sunny day in September a few years ago.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by Faith, posted 11-03-2006 10:30 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 76 by Faith, posted 11-03-2006 11:27 PM nator has replied
 Message 88 by tsig, posted 11-04-2006 6:53 AM nator has not replied

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