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Author Topic:   Omniscience, Omnipotence, the Fall & Logical Contradictions.
Christian7
Member (Idle past 247 days)
Posts: 628
From: n/a
Joined: 01-19-2004


Message 106 of 354 (361354)
11-03-2006 11:57 PM
Reply to: Message 104 by mark24
11-03-2006 9:19 PM


Re: God: Just or Unjust?
How can foreknowledge not be predestination? How can something that is absolutely known about the future not be predestined?
How can forknowledge BE predestination? You haven't demonstrated that anywhere. I don't have to demonstrate a negative. You have to demonstrate a positive.
No, humans agree what the laws of logic are, for quite obvious reasons. What we have is religious nutjobs being unable to accept that not only does the evidence not support you, but neither does logic. Ergo, in your opinion, not only does a requirement for evidence go out of the window, but so does logic, too.
In another thread I am involved in a discussion with another atheist who maintains that religion actually does no harm, or at least not enough that we should be bothered about..
Is our argument not an example of disagreement concerning logic? I think that forknowledge and predestinaton are not connected, and you think they are. They can co-operate, but they are not directly connected. This is an example of differing views on the laws of logic.
Besides, your argument is not even a valid syllogism, because it does not abide BY the laws of logic to come to the conclusion. It merely makes an assumption.
The syllogism, "It will happen, therefore it will happen, therefore you can't change it." is just as valid as, "God knows in advance what will happen, therefore it will happen." The only part that matters is the last part, "It will happen." and that is where the trouble arises. You assume that because it will happen we can't change it. Well you're absolutlety right, but the only reason why we can't change it is because we don't know what the future holds. If we knew what the future held, and were not able to change it, then I would say we have a problem with the idea of free will.
You'll find that true and genuine logic, the kind where all the dots are connected, often leads to the conclusion that the Christian God is the only possible God there is. The only reason we don't have access to such logic is because our minds are so finite and we still know so little about the universe. Scientists think we are on the virge of uncovering the grand mystery behind it all, but they are fooling themselves. The grand mystery is clearly revealed in a little red book called the bible, and that is all human kind really needs. Now science is a nice addition, as far as healing people goes, but we really don't need that crap because it's not going to save anybody from hell.
When it comes down to it, it's not, "The evidence says this, therefore I don't believe in God.", it's, "I don't want God in my life, so this is what I accept as evidence." And as far as people who really want to believe in God but just can't, they are being decieved by the rest of the population.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 104 by mark24, posted 11-03-2006 9:19 PM mark24 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 126 by mark24, posted 11-04-2006 6:42 AM Christian7 has replied

  
Christian7
Member (Idle past 247 days)
Posts: 628
From: n/a
Joined: 01-19-2004


Message 107 of 354 (361355)
11-04-2006 12:00 AM
Reply to: Message 105 by Asgara
11-03-2006 9:23 PM


Re: few questions
Does your god know all about me before I am even born?
Does your god know what I will choose before I choose it?
Is your god the sole creator of life?
1. Yes.
2. Yes.
3. Yes.
And you know what this proves, absolutley nothing for your side of the argument. All it proves is how awesome my God is.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 105 by Asgara, posted 11-03-2006 9:23 PM Asgara has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 108 by jar, posted 11-04-2006 12:06 AM Christian7 has replied
 Message 109 by Asgara, posted 11-04-2006 12:09 AM Christian7 has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 108 of 354 (361357)
11-04-2006 12:06 AM
Reply to: Message 107 by Christian7
11-04-2006 12:00 AM


Re: few questions
asgara writes:
Does your god know all about me before I am even born?
Does your god know what I will choose before I choose it?
Is your god the sole creator of life?
to which iBibleNano replied
quote:
1. Yes.
2. Yes.
3. Yes.
And you know what this proves, absolutley nothing for your side of the argument. All it proves is how awesome my God is.
It proves that your godlet is a mean, vicious, picayune little bling-bling pimp daddy worthy of no honor or respect.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 107 by Christian7, posted 11-04-2006 12:00 AM Christian7 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 110 by Christian7, posted 11-04-2006 12:12 AM jar has replied

  
Asgara
Member (Idle past 2302 days)
Posts: 1783
From: Wisconsin, USA
Joined: 05-10-2003


Message 109 of 354 (361359)
11-04-2006 12:09 AM
Reply to: Message 107 by Christian7
11-04-2006 12:00 AM


Re: few questions
It does show how vapid your argument is.
If your god knew my choices before I was even created...and s/he/it created me anyway...then there was no choice for me in anything.
You have also shown your belief in an evil god. If your god KNEW that George would die an atheist and allowed his creation anyway...then George was created solely to be damned.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 107 by Christian7, posted 11-04-2006 12:00 AM Christian7 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 112 by Christian7, posted 11-04-2006 12:19 AM Asgara has replied

  
Christian7
Member (Idle past 247 days)
Posts: 628
From: n/a
Joined: 01-19-2004


Message 110 of 354 (361360)
11-04-2006 12:12 AM
Reply to: Message 108 by jar
11-04-2006 12:06 AM


Re: few questions
It proves that your godlet is a mean, vicious, picayune little bling-bling pimp daddy worthy of no honor or respect.
Really? So because God is omniscent he is therefore worthy of no respect? How did you figure that? Unless of course, you meant to combine that with what we know about the real world.
Our finite minds simply cannot grasp the infinite mind of God, so any effort to concieve of him in human terms in futile. God gaves us just enough wisdom to be able to have a personal relationship with him. He did not give us the ability to figure out what it is like to be outside of time as God is. In fact, even saying that God is outside of time is almost disrespectful in a way, because that's trying to explain him. We simply don't have the ability to do that.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 108 by jar, posted 11-04-2006 12:06 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 111 by jar, posted 11-04-2006 12:18 AM Christian7 has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 111 of 354 (361362)
11-04-2006 12:18 AM
Reply to: Message 110 by Christian7
11-04-2006 12:12 AM


Re: few questions
Sorry but simply more nonsense. You made a clear statement which I quoted in full in Message 108 for all to read. Your little joke of a godlet creates people solely to be damned. That is not something to be respected or worshiped but an evil little demon. More something to be pitied than awesome.
It is sad that so many Christians seem to worship such a pitiful joke and think it is GOD.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 110 by Christian7, posted 11-04-2006 12:12 AM Christian7 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 113 by Christian7, posted 11-04-2006 12:20 AM jar has replied

  
Christian7
Member (Idle past 247 days)
Posts: 628
From: n/a
Joined: 01-19-2004


Message 112 of 354 (361363)
11-04-2006 12:19 AM
Reply to: Message 109 by Asgara
11-04-2006 12:09 AM


Re: few questions
It does show how vapid your argument is.
If your god knew my choices before I was even created...and s/he/it created me anyway...then there was no choice for me in anything.
I don't see the reasoning involved in that. That's just plain stupid and a demonstration of the finite wisdom of the common mortal.
You have also shown your belief in an evil god. If your god KNEW that George would die an atheist and allowed his creation anyway...then George was created solely to be damned.
So let me get this staight.
1. God knew that Goerge would be an athiest.
2. God created him anyway.
3. Therefore God created him for the sole purpose of being dammned.
All I have to say to that is wow wtf? That's an invalid syllogism. God created him to give him the chance to accept his love and go to heaven. It just so happens that he rejected God, so he went to hell.
1. God knew that goerge would be an athiest.
2. God wanted to give him a fair chance to accept him, even inspite of his forknowledge of the outcome.
3. Therefore God created him.
Now that's a valid syllogism.
It's not God's fault the person went to hell. It's there own damn fault. This my friend, is called real logic. I don't know what the hell your using but it isn't logic.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 109 by Asgara, posted 11-04-2006 12:09 AM Asgara has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 114 by Asgara, posted 11-04-2006 12:23 AM Christian7 has replied

  
Christian7
Member (Idle past 247 days)
Posts: 628
From: n/a
Joined: 01-19-2004


Message 113 of 354 (361364)
11-04-2006 12:20 AM
Reply to: Message 111 by jar
11-04-2006 12:18 AM


Re: few questions
Sorry but simply more nonsense. You made a clear statement which I quoted in full in Re: few questions (Message 108) for all to read. Your little joke of a godlet creates people solely to be damned. That is not something to be respected or worshiped but an evil little demon. More something to be pitied than awesome.
It is sad that so many Christians seem to worship such a pitiful joke and think it is GOD.
See my last post.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 111 by jar, posted 11-04-2006 12:18 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 115 by jar, posted 11-04-2006 12:24 AM Christian7 has replied

  
Asgara
Member (Idle past 2302 days)
Posts: 1783
From: Wisconsin, USA
Joined: 05-10-2003


Message 114 of 354 (361365)
11-04-2006 12:23 AM
Reply to: Message 112 by Christian7
11-04-2006 12:19 AM


Re: few questions
God created him to give him the chance to accept his love and go to heaven. It just so happens that he rejected God, so he went to hell.
So, you're saying that God DIDN'T know what the final outcome would be? Thanks, that makes much more sense.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 112 by Christian7, posted 11-04-2006 12:19 AM Christian7 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 116 by Christian7, posted 11-04-2006 12:25 AM Asgara has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 115 of 354 (361366)
11-04-2006 12:24 AM
Reply to: Message 113 by Christian7
11-04-2006 12:20 AM


Re: few questions
Right. Message 112.
That was where you said:
1. God knew that goerge would be an athiest.
2. God wanted to give him a fair chance to accept him, even inspite of his forknowledge of the outcome.
3. Therefore God created him.
Now that's a valid syllogism.
It's not God's fault the person went to hell. It's there own damn fault. This my friend, is called real logic. I don't know what the hell your using but it isn't logic.
Thank you for once again confirming that your godlet is an evil little demon.
What a pitiful little godlet you worship. How sad.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 113 by Christian7, posted 11-04-2006 12:20 AM Christian7 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 118 by Christian7, posted 11-04-2006 12:27 AM jar has replied

  
Christian7
Member (Idle past 247 days)
Posts: 628
From: n/a
Joined: 01-19-2004


Message 116 of 354 (361367)
11-04-2006 12:25 AM
Reply to: Message 114 by Asgara
11-04-2006 12:23 AM


Re: few questions
So, you're saying that God DIDN'T know what the final outcome would be? Thanks, that makes much more sense.
Where is that written? It is not even implied there. There is no way in which that means what you think it means. Your reasoning is invalid.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 114 by Asgara, posted 11-04-2006 12:23 AM Asgara has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 117 by Asgara, posted 11-04-2006 12:26 AM Christian7 has replied

  
Asgara
Member (Idle past 2302 days)
Posts: 1783
From: Wisconsin, USA
Joined: 05-10-2003


Message 117 of 354 (361369)
11-04-2006 12:26 AM
Reply to: Message 116 by Christian7
11-04-2006 12:25 AM


Re: few questions
So god DID know what the final outcome would be?
So George really had no choice, he was destined to die an atheist?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 116 by Christian7, posted 11-04-2006 12:25 AM Christian7 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 119 by Christian7, posted 11-04-2006 12:29 AM Asgara has replied

  
Christian7
Member (Idle past 247 days)
Posts: 628
From: n/a
Joined: 01-19-2004


Message 118 of 354 (361370)
11-04-2006 12:27 AM
Reply to: Message 115 by jar
11-04-2006 12:24 AM


Re: few questions
Thank you for once again confirming that your godlet is an evil little demon.
What a pitiful little godlet you worship. How sad.
I've already demonstrated my argument. I'm not going to waste any more of my time on this petty argument. It's really pathetic is what it is. Athiests have to gang up on Christians and convert them to a fallicious mindset in order to assert their own allegedly superior intellect and to confirm their disbelief in the living God.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 115 by jar, posted 11-04-2006 12:24 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 121 by jar, posted 11-04-2006 12:33 AM Christian7 has replied

  
Christian7
Member (Idle past 247 days)
Posts: 628
From: n/a
Joined: 01-19-2004


Message 119 of 354 (361372)
11-04-2006 12:29 AM
Reply to: Message 117 by Asgara
11-04-2006 12:26 AM


Re: few questions
So god DID know what the final outcome would be?
So George really had no choice, he was destined to die an atheist?
Where are you getting the connection of forknowledge and predistination from? That's not built into the laws of logic.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 117 by Asgara, posted 11-04-2006 12:26 AM Asgara has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 120 by Asgara, posted 11-04-2006 12:31 AM Christian7 has replied

  
Asgara
Member (Idle past 2302 days)
Posts: 1783
From: Wisconsin, USA
Joined: 05-10-2003


Message 120 of 354 (361373)
11-04-2006 12:31 AM
Reply to: Message 119 by Christian7
11-04-2006 12:29 AM


Re: few questions
Planning on answering?
God DID know what the final outcome would be? Did god know that George would die an atheist?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 119 by Christian7, posted 11-04-2006 12:29 AM Christian7 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 122 by Christian7, posted 11-04-2006 12:35 AM Asgara has replied

  
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