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Author Topic:   Omniscience, Omnipotence, the Fall & Logical Contradictions.
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 121 of 354 (361374)
11-04-2006 12:33 AM
Reply to: Message 118 by Christian7
11-04-2006 12:27 AM


Re: few questions
Athiests have to gang up on Christians and convert them to a fallicious mindset in order to assert their own allegedly superior intellect and to confirm their disbelief in the living God.
Sorry but I am a Christian. Been one for over 60 years. Built churches, taught Sunday school to both kids and adults. The only difference is that I don't worship that pathetic little thing you call your god.
The things that you outlined, that have been quoted in this thread are quite clear. You describe a godlet that creates the vast majority of humans just to be damned.
If that is not evil, what would you call it?
Edited by jar, : appalin spallin

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 118 by Christian7, posted 11-04-2006 12:27 AM Christian7 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 128 by Christian7, posted 11-04-2006 2:47 PM jar has replied

  
Christian7
Member (Idle past 248 days)
Posts: 628
From: n/a
Joined: 01-19-2004


Message 122 of 354 (361375)
11-04-2006 12:35 AM
Reply to: Message 120 by Asgara
11-04-2006 12:31 AM


Re: few questions
God DID know what the final outcome would be? Did god know that George would die an atheist?
Yes he did.
OK, you may not like what I am about to tell you now, but it's the cold and brutal truth.
God is God. Everything that happens is for his glory. There is nothing you or I can do to change it (though we have the free will to chose.) If God wants to send people to hell, that's what he will do. So get the fuck over it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 120 by Asgara, posted 11-04-2006 12:31 AM Asgara has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 123 by Asgara, posted 11-04-2006 12:37 AM Christian7 has replied
 Message 124 by jar, posted 11-04-2006 12:42 AM Christian7 has not replied
 Message 125 by ringo, posted 11-04-2006 12:51 AM Christian7 has not replied

  
Asgara
Member (Idle past 2302 days)
Posts: 1783
From: Wisconsin, USA
Joined: 05-10-2003


Message 123 of 354 (361376)
11-04-2006 12:37 AM
Reply to: Message 122 by Christian7
11-04-2006 12:35 AM


Re: few questions
ROFL
I could care less what your views on god are. I don't want to change your god because I don't believe it exists. But thank you for finally admitting that your god sends people to hell because he wants to.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 122 by Christian7, posted 11-04-2006 12:35 AM Christian7 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 132 by Christian7, posted 11-04-2006 4:08 PM Asgara has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 124 of 354 (361378)
11-04-2006 12:42 AM
Reply to: Message 122 by Christian7
11-04-2006 12:35 AM


Re: few questions
asgara writes:
God DID know what the final outcome would be? Did god know that George would die an atheist?
to which iBibleNano replied:
quote:
Yes he did.
So iBibleNano pitiful little caricature of a god creates folk knowing before hand that they will be damned to hell.
I could understand folk that simply feared such an evil creature, but could anyone love such a demon?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
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ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 125 of 354 (361379)
11-04-2006 12:51 AM
Reply to: Message 122 by Christian7
11-04-2006 12:35 AM


Re: few questions
iBibleNano writes:
There is nothing you or I can do to change it (though we have the free will to chose.)
Seriously, do you not see the contradiction there?
How can we have the "free will" to "choose" something that we can't change?

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mark24
Member (Idle past 5194 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


Message 126 of 354 (361401)
11-04-2006 6:42 AM
Reply to: Message 106 by Christian7
11-03-2006 11:57 PM


Re: God: Just or Unjust?
iBibleNano,
How can forknowledge BE predestination? You haven't demonstrated that anywhere. I don't have to demonstrate a negative. You have to demonstrate a positive.
Forknowledge is predestination because once something is forknown it cannot be any different. It must & will happen.
I'll define predestined as something that must happen. At least that should be non-controversial.
Premise: God is omniscient & knows everything before it happens.
Inference: God's omniscience means that when I am presented with a choice the outcome is known in advance. Given that god knows the outcome in advance it therefore must happen & therefore meets the standard of being predestined.
Conclusion: Ergo, omniscience = predestination of future events.
If god forknew something that later turned out to be different then he never forknew it in the first place meaning he is not omniscient. If he did forknow it it absolutely must & will come to pass. That is predestination.
The syllogism, "It will happen, therefore it will happen, therefore you can't change it." is just as valid as, "God knows in advance what will happen, therefore it will happen." The only part that matters is the last part, "It will happen." and that is where the trouble arises. You assume that because it will happen we can't change it. Well you're absolutlety right, but the only reason why we can't change it is because we don't know what the future holds. If we knew what the future held, and were not able to change it, then I would say we have a problem with the idea of free will.
It's not about what we know, it's about what god knows. If god knows that I am going to choose a striped shirt to put on this morning, then I cannot change that. It is predestined that I will put a striped shirt on.
but the only reason why we can't change it is because we don't know what the future holds.
The only reason we can't change it is because god knows the outcome. Our not knowing what that outcome is, is irrelevant.
You'll find that true and genuine logic, the kind where all the dots are connected, often leads to the conclusion that the Christian God is the only possible God there is. The only reason we don't have access to such logic is because our minds are so finite and we still know so little about the universe.
So I'll find something that I can't find? Is that the sort of logic you mean? Is that what constitutes logic "where all the dots are connected" in your book? Gooooooood grief, Charlie Brown.
This is going to be one of those silly conversations that is only worth continuing for the sake of the lurkers, isn't it?
Mark
Edited by mark24, : No reason given.

There are 10 kinds of people in this world; those that understand binary, & those that don't

This message is a reply to:
 Message 106 by Christian7, posted 11-03-2006 11:57 PM Christian7 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 127 by Christian7, posted 11-04-2006 2:31 PM mark24 has replied

  
Christian7
Member (Idle past 248 days)
Posts: 628
From: n/a
Joined: 01-19-2004


Message 127 of 354 (361522)
11-04-2006 2:31 PM
Reply to: Message 126 by mark24
11-04-2006 6:42 AM


Re: God: Just or Unjust?
Forknowledge is predestination because once something is forknown it cannot be any different. It must & will happen.
I'll define predestined as something that must happen. At least that should be non-controversial.
Premise: God is omniscient & knows everything before it happens.
Inference: God's omniscience means that when I am presented with a choice the outcome is known in advance. Given that god knows the outcome in advance it therefore must happen & therefore meets the standard of being predestined.
Conclusion: Ergo, omniscience = predestination of future events.
If god forknew something that later turned out to be different then he never forknew it in the first place meaning he is not omniscient. If he did forknow it it absolutely must & will come to pass. That is predestination.
OK, first, we must define the difference betweeen forknowledge and predestination:
Forknowledge - Knowing in advance what will happen. (No effect produced)
Predistination - Bringing about a future event. (An effect is produced)
Forknowledge does not create an effect, therefore it cannot be predestination.
To say, "God knows in advance what will happen, therefore it will happen, therefore we can't change it" is just as valid as saying, "Whatever will happen will happen, therefore it will happen, therefore we can't change it." We must either accept determinism reguardless of the existance of God, or reject both of these arguments.
It's not about what we know, it's about what god knows. If god knows that I am going to choose a striped shirt to put on this morning, then I cannot change that. It is predestined that I will put a striped shirt on.
How can simply knowing about something in the future change the fact that we have free will? It can't.
The only reason we can't change it is because god knows the outcome. Our not knowing what that outcome is, is irrelevant.
Our knowing the outcome is very relevant, because that's the only way to demonstrate that we have no free will.
Edited by iBibleNano, : No reason given.
Edited by iBibleNano, : I had to change a certian word from can to can't to make my argument clearer.
Edited by iBibleNano, : Had to fix the other can.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 126 by mark24, posted 11-04-2006 6:42 AM mark24 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 129 by Asgara, posted 11-04-2006 2:49 PM Christian7 has replied
 Message 141 by mark24, posted 11-05-2006 6:56 AM Christian7 has replied
 Message 142 by sidelined, posted 11-05-2006 7:55 AM Christian7 has replied

  
Christian7
Member (Idle past 248 days)
Posts: 628
From: n/a
Joined: 01-19-2004


Message 128 of 354 (361529)
11-04-2006 2:47 PM
Reply to: Message 121 by jar
11-04-2006 12:33 AM


Re: few questions
Sorry but I am a Christian. Been one for over 60 years. Built churches, taught Sunday school to both kids and adults. The only difference is that I don't worship that pathetic little thing you call your god.
The things that you outlined, that have been quoted in this thread are quite clear. You describe a godlet that creates the vast majority of humans just to be damned.
If that is not evil, what would you call it?
Christianity is defined by a set of fundamental doctrines outlined in scripture. I am afraid you're not a christian.
To be a christian you have to accept my God (aka Jesus Christ) into your heart as your personal lord and savior, and lo, you are welcomed into the kingdom. It's that simple.
Edited by iBibleNano, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 121 by jar, posted 11-04-2006 12:33 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 134 by jar, posted 11-04-2006 5:07 PM Christian7 has replied

  
Asgara
Member (Idle past 2302 days)
Posts: 1783
From: Wisconsin, USA
Joined: 05-10-2003


Message 129 of 354 (361531)
11-04-2006 2:49 PM
Reply to: Message 127 by Christian7
11-04-2006 2:31 PM


Re: God: Just or Unjust?
How can simply knowing about something in the future change the fact that we have free will? It can't.
Did your god know that George would die an atheist? Did he allow for George's creation while knowing this?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 127 by Christian7, posted 11-04-2006 2:31 PM Christian7 has replied

Replies to this message:
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mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4752
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 130 of 354 (361552)
11-04-2006 3:49 PM


My view on the subject:
The "omnimax-God" is essentially an atheist construct. No offense to atheists, afterall, they merely take a set or premisses to their conclusion. But it's a collection of omni's almost designed to bring God crumbling down. That alone means that these type of hypothetics are dubious. I also find them to be tenuous because we have a set of super-powers we know nothing about. Almost any implication can be bandied around.
My problem, is one of specifics.
For example, if you accept an omnipotent and omniscient God, you then have a concoction that will allow for the illogical by definition. Nevertheless, logically, if God can do the impossible, then he is able to not foresee events unfold.
Otherwise, he isn't omnipotent.
So you see, it's all conjecture because the mind of God cannot be fathomed.
But also, as ever there is the problem of ignorance. If you're in a room and you can choose from chocolate or fruit, and there's another room where you can choose the same, only in one room God is watching, would you choose differently?
No! Therefore we can infer that God's knowledge doesn't affect the individual's choice.

Replies to this message:
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Christian7
Member (Idle past 248 days)
Posts: 628
From: n/a
Joined: 01-19-2004


Message 131 of 354 (361554)
11-04-2006 3:59 PM
Reply to: Message 129 by Asgara
11-04-2006 2:49 PM


Re: God: Just or Unjust?
Did your god know that George would die an atheist? Did he allow for George's creation while knowing this?
What are you trying to prove?
Listen to mike the wiz. Suppose God didn't exist. Our choices would be the same. (Except for those that are influenced (not controlled) by the supernatural powers). Therefore, as mike says, we can conclude that God's existance or forknowledge does not effect our free will. Yes, God does set up circumstances to direct us, but the choices are always ours.

This message is a reply to:
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Christian7
Member (Idle past 248 days)
Posts: 628
From: n/a
Joined: 01-19-2004


Message 132 of 354 (361560)
11-04-2006 4:08 PM
Reply to: Message 123 by Asgara
11-04-2006 12:37 AM


Re: few questions
ROFL
I could care less what your views on god are. I don't want to change your god because I don't believe it exists. But thank you for finally admitting that your god sends people to hell because he wants to.
I never admitted it. I merely said, "if". I was making the point that he is God and will always have his way reguardless.

This message is a reply to:
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mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4752
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 133 of 354 (361568)
11-04-2006 4:18 PM
Reply to: Message 131 by Christian7
11-04-2006 3:59 PM


Re: God: Just or Unjust?
Listen to mike the wiz
Oh no..now I'm in trouble!
....just leave that Asgara to me, I'll have eat for breakfast. Queeny on freewill-toast.
(welcome to the forum, I forgot to welcome you)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 131 by Christian7, posted 11-04-2006 3:59 PM Christian7 has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 134 of 354 (361583)
11-04-2006 5:07 PM
Reply to: Message 128 by Christian7
11-04-2006 2:47 PM


Re: few questions
Well I am a Christian, been one for long, long time. I do believe in Jesus. It is just your silly little godlet that is unbelievable. And according to Jesus it doesn't matter whether you believe in him or not. It is only little playground bully type imitation gods that get pissed when they dissed.
Don't get me wrong. I do not doubt that you too are a Christian. I'm just sorry that you don't have a clue what Christianity is all about or what GOD is like.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 128 by Christian7, posted 11-04-2006 2:47 PM Christian7 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 135 by Christian7, posted 11-04-2006 6:24 PM jar has replied

  
Christian7
Member (Idle past 248 days)
Posts: 628
From: n/a
Joined: 01-19-2004


Message 135 of 354 (361615)
11-04-2006 6:24 PM
Reply to: Message 134 by jar
11-04-2006 5:07 PM


Re: few questions
Well I am a Christian, been one for long, long time. I do believe in Jesus. It is just your silly little godlet that is unbelievable. And according to Jesus it doesn't matter whether you believe in him or not. It is only little playground bully type imitation gods that get pissed when they dissed.
Don't get me wrong. I do not doubt that you too are a Christian. I'm just sorry that you don't have a clue what Christianity is all about or what GOD is like.
You need to read John 3 carefully. Read it about 7 times. Then think about it. Good works is only how we demonstrate obedience to God. Faith is how we are saved.
You ARE NOT a christian. You do NOT believe in the same Jesus that I believe in. Your Jesus probably didn't die for our sins. My Jesus DID!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 134 by jar, posted 11-04-2006 5:07 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 136 by jar, posted 11-04-2006 6:40 PM Christian7 has replied

  
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