Haggard Scandal

Billy Graham was once cornered by a tenatious reporter who asked him his thoughts on the Jim Baker scandal... It was imparted to me that Billy does not like to participate in such discourse as this. But the reporter had him pinned.He responded, (and I paraphrase) "There are thousands of airplanes, some big, some small. They fly thousands of miles and perform all kinds of functions flawlessly, some mundane, others grand... But let one grand jumbo jet crash, and the whole world is gawking at the casualties."Edited by Rob, : No reason given.Edited by AdminJar, : fix unmatched quote

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"God must know, better than anyone, how unfulfilling it is to be right, until it can be shared, with a community willing to accept it, and enjoy the glory of it."(Rob Lockett)

So... Can you shed light on what is wrong with that...

Morality is not an imposition, unless 'being' is an imposition.I don't know if we should be ungrateful that God chose to impose being upon us. The alternative is rather unfulfilling. I am just happy that there is one way to be. I'm not going to question any longer why he didn't allow me to be the way I think I should be able to be. Such things are not comprehensible to me since they require infinite knowledge. I'll take the granduer of the mystery. Being all knowing would really spoil my life in some measure.

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"God must know, better than anyone, how unfulfilling it is to be right, until it can be shared, with a community willing to accept it, and enjoy the glory of it."(Rob Lockett)

So, morals absolutely do not exist in an absolute state?By inferring a reality (ie. God) you are required to infer an absolute.

quote:

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"Unless thought is valid we have no reason to believe in the real universe."

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"A universe whose only claim to be believed in rests on the validity of inference must not start telling us the inference is invalid..."

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(C.S. Lewis Christian Reflections)

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Respectfully, FYIEdited by Rob, : No reason given.

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"God must know, better than anyone, how unfulfilling it is to be right, until it can be shared, with a community willing to accept it, and enjoy the glory of it."(Rob Lockett)

Yes, you are right, and I am wrong. Thank you for disagreeing and proving the point. How can morality not be synonymous with what is right? It need not apply only to social interaction, it applies to all interaction and is indistinguishable from the effect of physical law.Law is law. Not created, but creating.The law of non-contradiction cannot be challenged without affirming it. And it's not my argument. It owns us, we do not own it."Disobedience to conscience is voluntary; bad poetry, on the other hand, is usually not made on purpose."
(C.S. Lewis A Preface to Paradise Lost)

My apologies for any confusion. I did not mean morality applies to the laws of physics, I only meant that all interactions, be it between a planet and it's moon, or a social animal and it's neighbor, are goverened by laws.If that is not the case, then with what would you disagree?

Thank You NJ! Compliments are pretty rare around here. But you know well that I cannot take credit for such wisdom. It was imparted to me not because I am deserving, but because He is merciful to the sinner.

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"God must know, better than anyone, how unfulfilling it is to be right, until it can be shared, with a community willing to accept it, and enjoy the glory of it."(Rob Lockett)

A most excellent analysis indeed. But it is incomplete...obedience to morals also gives us a description of how the universe does work. It is proof! We observe gravity, and we observe morality in practice.Furthermore, since we do not obey perfectly, the universe does not work perfectly.There is a great quote to illustrate this, but if I take the time to look for it, I may be divorced by the time I do. So in the name of morality, I had better let it go.Edited by Rob, : No reason given.

...bringing every thought into captivity to the obedience of Christ, and being ready to punish all disobedience when your obedience is fulfilled.

Your a genius!

I said: And you replied: What I was trying to show, and did so (but only in my own words) was that when morality is obeyed, what we get is a demonstration (which you said morality cannot give) of how the universe works in the arena of relationships (which is only one arena of law within the universe). I did not intend to say that morality would determine the laws of physics. But that as the laws of physics demonstrate how the universe should work in terms of physics, the laws of morality demonstrate how the universe works in terms of relationships.However, if a man sins and disturbs his environment with selfish ambition as you and I do... then it appears our sin will affect the sun rising some time in the future as well. Such a scene cannot be corrected without destroying the defective cause of the problem. I don't think we can fully appriciate how much impact our sins actually have on the universe at large. And I think we underestimate the patience and mercy of God. He is within the laws of justice to destroy us now. But unlike us, he takes an eye for an eye. Human beings generally take a limb for an eye, or worse.You also said:I prefer to give the logical argument (in my own words) and then the dramatic illustration, so that we can discuss the issue meaningfully. That way I can show that I not only understand the argument, but that others do as well. And it leaves the recipient with much less room to nakedly attempt to avoid the subject.A lot of this stuff isn't found by thinking so much as you think Ringo. Thinking is what enables us to deny certain 'real' stuff (like morality) with more and more magical manuevering.It's like the laws of physics... If we think without logic, we can be led all over the ballpark. But in logically searching for reality, we learn the thoughts of reality as we discover it, and come to understand things like the 2nd law of thermodynamics. And though I shouldn't have to say it... Things can only be discovered if they already exist. We can't change what we've discovered. That would be the opposite, and is called a cover-up. The same applies to morality and it appears that Mr. Haggard understands what I mean."The more lucidly we think, the more we are cut off: the more deeply we enter into reality, the less we can think."
(C.S. Lewis Myth Became Fact, World Dominion)

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"God must know, better than anyone, how unfulfilling it is to be right, until it can be shared, with a community willing to accept it, and enjoy the glory of it."(Rob Lockett)

Are you saying that human beings should obey their desires and not try to control them?It's an interesting idea really. Let's just be who we really are! Is that how we determine what is real?

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"God must know, better than anyone, how unfulfilling it is to be right, until it can be shared, with a community willing to accept it, and enjoy the glory of it."(Rob Lockett)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------Billy Graham was once cornered by a tenatious reporter who asked him his thoughts on the Jim Baker scandal... It was imparted to me that Billy does not like to participate in such discourse as this. But the reporter had him pinned.He responded, (and I paraphrase) "There are thousands of airplanes, some big, some small. They fly thousands of miles and perform all kinds of functions flawlessly, some mundane, others grand... But let one grand jumbo jet crash, and the whole world is gawking at the casualties."

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"God must know, better than anyone, how unfulfilling it is to be right, until it can be shared, with a community willing to accept it, and enjoy the glory of it."(Rob Lockett)

Disclaimer: I only offer the following, as a means of explaining something irrefutable. I am also not attempting to insult your intelligence. Furthermore, it is not an attempt by me to be right. I cannot be right. Neither can you. This argument is not just mine; it is yours also. It is the basis of all 'logic'; The law of non-contradiction. It is right, and we both use it. It holds that a contradictory statement cannot be true (unless it is qualified in some manner). You just used the law of non-contradiction by making an affirmation. The only reason yours failed, was because of the attempt to affirm a negative.Other absolute negations include:1. There is no truth.2. There is no God.3. There are no blue stones with black dots in the universe.To make the point clearer... you are positing an absolute, while denying that absolutes exist. As such, I must ask a very important question:Is it wrong for me to say that there are laws of morality? And I mean for everybody...Please answer carefully... If you are right, then you prove the law of non-contradiction by inferring that I am wrong and you are right. That is the law of non-contradiction. We cannot both be right!But you are not right, because you are using the law of non-contradiction against itself, and that is pure nonsense.
A house divided against itself cannot stand! It rests on sand.But a house built on the rock, can endure the storm.Thinking is very shallow and simple. It is basic, and base. It is academic. It is careful. It is sound.And it is despised... because the devil is in the details, and he cannot hide from those who can see. God didn't make fig leaves big enough to drown out the light of reason."In coming to understand anything we are rejecting the facts as they are for us, in favour of the facts as they are."
(Lewis of course)Edited by Rob, : No reason given.

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"God must know, better than anyone, how unfulfilling it is to be right, until it can be shared, with a community willing to accept it, and enjoy the glory of it."(Rob Lockett)

Everyone loves to spit and mock the poor fool who dares to carry his cross.Do what you have to do...I don't need to point fingers Archer... I have a mirror. I wish everyone the best in their journey whereever they are.But if it makes you feel better... I mean if ugliness is your absolute with which to judge yourself and your friends as superior, I cannot argue the point. You are better that a lot of people.In fact, we're all good people compared to Hitler.
And we celebrated his demise. Gave ourselves a good pat on the back!But if we compare ourselves to Christ. If we compare ourselves to utter righteousness, then what are we? Suddenly we're all equal!