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Author
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Topic: Haggard Scandal
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ringo
Member (Idle past 433 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 119 of 302 (361486)
11-04-2006 1:03 PM
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Reply to: Message 118 by Rob
11-04-2006 12:54 PM
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Rob writes: How can morality not be synonymous with what is right? It need not apply only to social interaction, it applies to all interaction.... Just out of curiosity: to what interactions other than social interactions does morality apply?
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| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 118 by Rob, posted 11-04-2006 12:54 PM | | Rob has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 131 by Rob, posted 11-04-2006 2:32 PM | | ringo has replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 433 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 135 of 302 (361528)
11-04-2006 2:46 PM
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Reply to: Message 131 by Rob
11-04-2006 2:32 PM
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Rob writes: I only meant that all interactions, be it between a planet and it's moon, or a social animal and it's neighbor, are goverened by laws. There is a fundamental difference between physical laws and social laws: Physical laws describe how the universe does work. Social laws prescribe how people should behave. (It's largely coincidence that the same word "law" is applied in English to two very different concepts.) Since this topic appears to be about morality, it is only the social aspects that apply.
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| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 131 by Rob, posted 11-04-2006 2:32 PM | | Rob has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 139 by Rob, posted 11-04-2006 3:25 PM | | ringo has replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 433 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 142 of 302 (361551)
11-04-2006 3:48 PM
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Reply to: Message 139 by Rob
11-04-2006 3:25 PM
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Rob writes: obedience to morals also gives us a description of how the universe does work. No it doesn't. The sun rose and set the same in Nazi Germany as it does in smalltown USA. People breathe, eat, etc. the same in a gulag as they do in the Vatican. Even you should understand that one's moral behaviour does not determine one's outcome on earth.
There is a great quote to illustrate this.... If it's C. S. Lewis, don't waste your time. Put your thoughts in your own words.
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| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 139 by Rob, posted 11-04-2006 3:25 PM | | Rob has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 147 by Rob, posted 11-04-2006 7:46 PM | | ringo has replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 433 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 162 of 302 (361698)
11-04-2006 10:34 PM
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Reply to: Message 147 by Rob
11-04-2006 7:46 PM
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Rob writes: ... the laws of morality demonstrate how the universe works in terms of relationships. There are no "laws of morality".
A lot of this stuff isn't found by thinking so much as you think Ringo. Thinking is what enables us to deny certain 'real' stuff (like morality) with more and more magical manuevering. You have it backwards. It's your "magical maneuvering" that enables you to avoid thinking.
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| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 147 by Rob, posted 11-04-2006 7:46 PM | | Rob has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 164 by Rob, posted 11-04-2006 11:46 PM | | ringo has replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 433 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 167 of 302 (361715)
11-05-2006 12:10 AM
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Reply to: Message 164 by Rob
11-04-2006 11:46 PM
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Rob writes: Is it wrong for me to say that there are laws of morality? It would be wrong for you to say that there are fairies building a castle in your backyard unless you can provide evidence that they exist. Similarly, it is wrong for you to say that there are "laws of morality" unless you can provide examples of what they are.
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| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 164 by Rob, posted 11-04-2006 11:46 PM | | Rob has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 170 by Rob, posted 11-05-2006 12:15 AM | | ringo has replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 433 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 172 of 302 (361720)
11-05-2006 12:19 AM
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Reply to: Message 170 by Rob
11-05-2006 12:15 AM
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Rob writes: Are you telling me I am wrong, by using a code that does not exist? I'm using English. How about those examples of "laws of morality"?
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| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 170 by Rob, posted 11-05-2006 12:15 AM | | Rob has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 173 by Rob, posted 11-05-2006 12:30 AM | | ringo has replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 433 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 174 of 302 (361723)
11-05-2006 12:37 AM
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Reply to: Message 173 by Rob
11-05-2006 12:30 AM
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Rob writes: By not answering your question in the terms you require for belief in the subject in question, am I guilty of anything immoral? Do you consider evasion immoral?
You have provided the answer to your own question. For the benefit of our fans who enjoy verbosity, how about answering it in your own words?
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| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 173 by Rob, posted 11-05-2006 12:30 AM | | Rob has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 175 by Rob, posted 11-05-2006 12:49 AM | | ringo has replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 433 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 176 of 302 (361738)
11-05-2006 1:00 AM
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Reply to: Message 175 by Rob
11-05-2006 12:49 AM
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Rob writes: It doesn't matter what I believe, your the one who doesn't believe in morality. I didn't say that. Pay attention. I said there are no "laws of morality" unless you can demonstrate that there are. So far, you have not done so. The topic would seem to be about the hypocrisy of fundamentalists in dealing with immorality among their own. Kindly demonstrate the "laws of morality", specifically how they apply to Ted Haggard and the Christian Right's reaction to his "peccadillos".
Your not arguing with me Ringo, you're arguing with your creator. I'm just a stupid messenger. Then how do you know you got the message right?
Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 175 by Rob, posted 11-05-2006 12:49 AM | | Rob has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 178 by Rob, posted 11-05-2006 1:23 AM | | ringo has replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 433 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 181 of 302 (361755)
11-05-2006 1:34 AM
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Reply to: Message 178 by Rob
11-05-2006 1:23 AM
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Rob writes: Are fundamentalists denying that he has acted immorally? That's the (implied) question of the OP, isn't it? Did you read the article? One of the "highlights" is:
quote:
White House downplays Rev. Ted Haggard's influence
And are you saying hypocrisy is wrong? By what laws to you infer that that is wrong? Still not paying attention, eh? You're the one who claims that there are "laws of morality", though you're steadfastly avoiding discussing them. If I claim there are no "laws of morality", how could I use them to make inferences about hypocrisy?
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| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 178 by Rob, posted 11-05-2006 1:23 AM | | Rob has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 184 by Rob, posted 11-05-2006 1:42 AM | | ringo has replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 433 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 188 of 302 (361763)
11-05-2006 1:49 AM
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Reply to: Message 184 by Rob
11-05-2006 1:42 AM
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Rob writes: ... my evading your evasiveness is labeled evasive. Well, you brought up the "laws of morality". Do you expect us to just swallow your assertion, hook, line and sinker? I asked a simple question: What are the "laws of morality" that you postulate?
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| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 184 by Rob, posted 11-05-2006 1:42 AM | | Rob has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 191 by Rob, posted 11-05-2006 2:19 AM | | ringo has replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 433 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 193 of 302 (361774)
11-05-2006 2:34 AM
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Reply to: Message 191 by Rob
11-05-2006 2:19 AM
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Rob writes: Love the truth Ringo, or reality, or Christ or whatever synonymous term you prefer, and make it first place in your life.... That is the moral law. How is that a "law", moral or otherwise? All you've done is pass the buck on to "The Truth TM" or "Reality TM". Morality is about what we do. I thought you were talking about some "law" that determines whether what we do is moral or immoral. Instead, it seems that your "laws of morality" concept is just more inanity.
You go ahead and condemn Haggard by your morals. You're still not paying attention. I didn't do that.
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| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 191 by Rob, posted 11-05-2006 2:19 AM | | Rob has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 207 by Rob, posted 11-05-2006 12:00 PM | | ringo has replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 433 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 209 of 302 (361827)
11-05-2006 12:17 PM
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Reply to: Message 207 by Rob
11-05-2006 12:00 PM
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Rob writes: If our actions determine our 'goodness', then you got to admit... the do-gooders got ya'll secular folk beat! Why are you lumping me in with "secular folk"? And do "do-gooders" like Mother Theresa and Gandhi fit into your criteria for "religious folk"?
Do have any idea how many good deeds Haggard has done? Do you have any idea how many "good deeds" I have done, so you can make a comparison?
Forgive me for another Bible verse.... No problem. I don't read your quotes anyway. 
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| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 207 by Rob, posted 11-05-2006 12:00 PM | | Rob has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 216 by Rob, posted 11-05-2006 1:55 PM | | ringo has replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 433 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 228 of 302 (361891)
11-05-2006 3:04 PM
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Reply to: Message 216 by Rob
11-05-2006 1:55 PM
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Rob writes: Well, the point is... that our actions do not make a shred of difference. Then why is it that the Ten Commandments refer only to our actions?
If you are a good and righteous person, then you will not go to heaven. You contradict Jesus:
quote:
Mat 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
Mat 25:35 For I was hungry, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
Mat 25:36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
Mat 25:37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee hungry, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
Mat 25:38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
Mat 25:39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
Mat 25:40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
It's pretty clear what Jesus thought morality meant, and it has nothing to do with the "heart".
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| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 216 by Rob, posted 11-05-2006 1:55 PM | | Rob has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 243 by Rob, posted 11-05-2006 4:14 PM | | ringo has replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 433 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 247 of 302 (361946)
11-05-2006 4:32 PM
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Reply to: Message 243 by Rob
11-05-2006 4:14 PM
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Rob writes: One group will not be expecting their good deeds to be good enough. And the other will be shocked at how little their deeds meant. No. You are misreading. Those who do (the righteous) inherit the kingdom. Those who don't do are condemned. There is no mention of "how much" they do. Jesus clearly said that righteousness - i.e. morality - comes from actions only.
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| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 243 by Rob, posted 11-05-2006 4:14 PM | | Rob has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 250 by Rob, posted 11-05-2006 5:27 PM | | ringo has replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 433 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 253 of 302 (361973)
11-05-2006 5:58 PM
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Reply to: Message 250 by Rob
11-05-2006 5:27 PM
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Rob writes: The fact is Ringo, we cannot do, because doing is perfection. Nonsense. I quoted Jesus' own words about what righteousness is and who inherits the kingdom. All He said was to feed the hungry, clothe the naked, etc. He said not one single solitary word about "perfection". Morality consists in doing unto others as we would have them do unto us. We are not perfect when dealing with our own needs, so there is no implication that we need to be perfect in dealing with the needs of others.
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| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 250 by Rob, posted 11-05-2006 5:27 PM | | Rob has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 257 by Rob, posted 11-05-2006 6:30 PM | | ringo has replied |
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