Haggard Scandal

For the record, I am not suggesting that mr. Haggard get a slap on the wrist. He should face the full penalty under law, for any crimes he is convicted for.

Are you using a code that does not exist to tell me I am wrong?Edited by Rob, : No reason given.

By not answering your question in the terms you require for belief in the subject in question, am I guilty of anything immoral?You have provided the answer to your own question."Can a mortal ask questions which God finds unanswerable? Quite easily, I should think. All nonsense questions are unanswerable."
(C. S. Lewis)

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"God must know, better than anyone, how unfulfilling it is to be right, until it can be shared, with a community willing to accept it, and enjoy the glory of it."(Rob Lockett)

Do you consider evasion immoral?It doesn't matter what I believe, your the one who doesn't believe in morality. If it doesn't exist objectively (like the sun and moon), my belief changes nothing.Tell me evasion is not immoral, and I'll admit nothing. Tell me it is, and I'll agree with you. I always use my own words. And as the moderation rules suggest, I support them with documentation and references.The ideas I wield however... the weapons if you will, are, I freely admit (for the sake of honesty... a moral concept) precede me by thousands of years.Your not arguing with me Ringo, you're arguing with your creator. And you are being evasive. I'm just a stupid messenger."When you are arguing against Him you are arguing against the very power that makes you able to argue at all."
(C.S. Lewis Mere Christianity)Edited by Rob, : No reason given.

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"God must know, better than anyone, how unfulfilling it is to be right, until it can be shared, with a community willing to accept it, and enjoy the glory of it."(Rob Lockett)

Are fundamentalists denying that he has acted immorally?And are you saying hypocrisy is wrong? By what laws to you infer that that is wrong?Do you know anyone who is not a hypocrite?I can give two examples of men who are not hypocrites...1. Jesus2. Charles Manson No! No! 'Six minute Abs'!I'm sorry Ringo, maybe i aught to just let you out here. But I saw the movie, so I'll stay in the car. haggard has brought enough suspiscion already!

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"God must know, better than anyone, how unfulfilling it is to be right, until it can be shared, with a community willing to accept it, and enjoy the glory of it."(Rob Lockett)

Trust me... He's not suprised!Luke 23: 32 Two other men, both criminals, were also led out with him to be executed. 33 When they came to the place called the Skull, there they crucified him, along with the criminals--one on his right, the other on his left. 34 Jesus said, "Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing." And they divided up his clothes by casting lots.

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"God must know, better than anyone, how unfulfilling it is to be right, until it can be shared, with a community willing to accept it, and enjoy the glory of it."(Rob Lockett)

deleteEdited by Rob, : No reason given.

Yeah the guys a sinner. No bones about it. Are you shocked? Outraged? Incredulous?What do you want the White house to do? Declare Christianity dead? I mean, really?The best part is, my evading your evasiveness is labeled evasive. You've twisted this so far out of control, you can't see straight Ringo. It's a sad state of affairs.Your only hope is total denial. Why... that dirty rotton Haggard (perfect name isn't it? )You know, if it wasn't for these evangelists, the world would be a great place!

Always wise to be careful, just in case. Good advice Ice, (hey! that rhymes).
Matthew 12:24 But when the Pharisees heard this, they said, "It is only by Beelzebub, the prince of demons, that this fellow drives out demons." 25 Jesus knew their thoughts and said to them, "Every kingdom divided against itself will be ruined, and every city or household divided against itself will not stand... 31 And so I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. 32 Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.

Dare I be so bold... I cannot agree with Einstein on this. Perhaps he should stay in the science thread? There is nothing at all that will restrain a man who refuses to be restrained. Even clear terms of hell he scoffs at. And mans sin, is the refusal, not so much the debauchery.The debauchery has been paid for. The refusal is rooted in pure adulterated pride and insolence, and cannot be forgiven because the man will not allow it to be.God doesn't condemn mankind for sin. He admits creating sin and took the responsibility for it. He paid dearly. Mankind condemns himself, by not responding to the one person who can save him. He has learned to love his sin. And he has every intention of keeping it.You want a quote on pride? An allegory and metaphor, poetry and sculpture? A masterpiece of communication?Job 41: 1 "Can you pull in the leviathan with a fishhook or tie down his tongue with a rope? 2 Can you put a cord through his nose or pierce his jaw with a hook? 3 Will he keep begging you for mercy? Will he speak to you with gentle words? 4 Will he make an agreement with you for you to take him as your slave for life? 5 Can you make a pet of him like a bird or put him on a leash for your girls? 6 Will traders barter for him? Will they divide him up among the merchants? 7 Can you fill his hide with harpoons or his head with fishing spears? 8 If you lay a hand on him, you will remember the struggle and never do it again! 9 Any hope of subduing him is false; the mere sight of him is overpowering. 10 No one is fierce enough to rouse him. Who then is able to stand against me?

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11 Who has a claim against me that I must pay? Everything under heaven belongs to me. 12 "I will not fail to speak of his limbs, his strength and his graceful form. 13 Who can strip off his outer coat? Who would approach him with a bridle? 14 Who dares open the doors of his mouth, ringed about with his fearsome teeth? 15 His back has rows of shields tightly sealed together; 16 each is so close to the next that no air can pass between. 17 They are joined fast to one another; they cling together and cannot be parted. 18 His snorting throws out flashes of light; his eyes are like the rays of dawn. 19 Firebrands stream from his mouth; sparks of fire shoot out. 20 Smoke pours from his nostrils as from a boiling pot over a fire of reeds. 21 His breath sets coals ablaze, and flames dart from his mouth. 22 Strength resides in his neck; dismay goes before him. 23 The folds of his flesh are tightly joined; they are firm and immovable. 24 His chest is hard as rock, hard as a lower millstone. 25 When he rises up, the mighty are terrified; they retreat before his thrashing. 26 The sword that reaches him has no effect, nor does the spear or the dart or the javelin. 27 Iron he treats like straw and bronze like rotten wood. 28 Arrows do not make him flee; slingstones are like chaff to him. 29 A club seems to him but a piece of straw; he laughs at the rattling of the lance. 30 His undersides are jagged potsherds, leaving a trail in the mud like a threshing sledge. 31 He makes the depths churn like a boiling caldron and stirs up the sea like a pot of ointment. 32 Behind him he leaves a glistening wake; one would think the deep had white hair. 33 Nothing on earth is his equal-- a creature without fear. 34 He looks down on all that are haughty; he is king over all that are proud."

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"God must know, better than anyone, how unfulfilling it is to be right, until it can be shared, with a community willing to accept it, and enjoy the glory of it."(Rob Lockett)

Luke 10:25 On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. "Teacher," he asked, "what must I do to inherit eternal life?" 26 "What is written in the Law?" he replied. "How do you read it?" 27 He answered: "'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind'; and, 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'" 28 "You have answered correctly," Jesus replied. "Do this and you will live."Love the truth Ringo, or reality, or Christ or whatever synonymous term you prefer, and make it first place in your life. And if you seek it with intent to find it, you will find it in the one place that it has always been. That's the way discovery is. We cannot find what we are looking for, if we prejudge what it must be.That is the moral law.The physical actions (manifestations of inward spiritual corruption) which we love to judge will follow suit relative to our total understanding of the truth. Haggard has obviously missed much of the whole (holy) nature of reality.Only one man ever had the whole picture. And he extends his hand to us all.You go ahead and condemn Haggard by your morals. If I do not forgive him, then I condemn myself. But I can only forgive someone of something I believe they have violated.I hope you will respect my straight foreward answer. Ask and ye shall receive. It's not complicated.

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"God must know, better than anyone, how unfulfilling it is to be right, until it can be shared, with a community willing to accept it, and enjoy the glory of it."(Rob Lockett)

Well in that case, Haggard is a saint. And all religious folks really! If our actions determine our 'goodness', then you got to admit... the do-gooders got ya'll secular folk beat! The scales will balance nicely for them. The good, far outweighing the bad. Do have any idea how many good deeds Haggard has done?But I don't believe this for a minute. I think the do-gooder stuff is often so phony, that it is even more sinful than the sin, because of the self-righteous attitude that results.In fact, that was how Jesus judged sin. He despised phony's and hypocrisy. Which is troubling since we all are to an extent, but the religious leaders He held to particular account.Forgive me for another Bible verse, but it is one of those rare one's where I think you will agree with the point.Matthew 23:1 Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples: 2 "The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat. 3 So you must obey them and do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach. 4 They tie up heavy loads and put them on men's shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them. 5 "Everything they do is done for men to see: They make their phylacteries wide and the tassels on their garments long; 6 they love the place of honor at banquets and the most important seats in the synagogues; 7 they love to be greeted in the marketplaces and to have men call them 'Rabbi.' 8 "But you are not to be called 'Rabbi,' for you have only one Master and you are all brothers. 9 And do not call anyone on earth 'father,' for you have one Father, and he is in heaven. 10 Nor are you to be called 'teacher,' for you have one Teacher, the Christ.That's the do do do Religion.

Well, the point is... that our actions do not make a shred of difference. The problem with man is his heart. We are corrupt on the inside, and no outward expression of deeds can cover that."...For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander. 20 These are what make a man 'unclean'; but eating with unwashed hands does not make him 'unclean.'" (Matthew 15)Some people are very good at putting on a mask and playing 'goodie two shoes'. Some are humanists, and some are Born of the Spirit of God, and all points in between. Others cannot cover the truth to save their own career (not that they should).Mother Theresa understood this, and said she would only go to heaven by the grace of God. With all her good deeds, she realized that she was undeserving of heaven.But go and learn what this means: 'I desire mercy, not sacrifice.' For I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners." (Matthew 9:13)If you are a good and righteous person, then you will not go to heaven. If you cannot understand why, then you have missed the most important point that you can ever come to understand.And I don't have to prove it to you, for it to be true. Just as Christopher Columbus did not have to prove that the world was round. It was always round.So play your games Ringo... it doesn't bother me in the least!"A young man who wishes to remain a sound atheist cannot be too careful of his reading."
(C. S. Lewis)

If our actions determine our 'goodness', then you got to admit... the do-gooders got ya'll secular folk beat! I'm sure... here's your response:
http://EvC Forum: Haggard Scandal -->EvC Forum: Haggard Scandal

You might want to study those verses you provided a little closer and not leave out rest:Matthew 25: 41 "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.' 44 "They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?' 45 "He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.' 46 "Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."There are two groups of people here. One group will not be expecting their good deeds to be good enough. And the other will be shocked at how little their deeds meant.

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"God must know, better than anyone, how unfulfilling it is to be right, until it can be shared, with a community willing to accept it, and enjoy the glory of it."(Rob Lockett)