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Author Topic:   Haggard Scandal
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 181 of 302 (361755)
11-05-2006 1:34 AM
Reply to: Message 178 by Rob
11-05-2006 1:23 AM


Rob writes:
Are fundamentalists denying that he has acted immorally?
That's the (implied) question of the OP, isn't it?
Did you read the article? One of the "highlights" is:
quote:
White House downplays Rev. Ted Haggard's influence
And are you saying hypocrisy is wrong? By what laws to you infer that that is wrong?
Still not paying attention, eh?
You're the one who claims that there are "laws of morality", though you're steadfastly avoiding discussing them. If I claim there are no "laws of morality", how could I use them to make inferences about hypocrisy?

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 178 by Rob, posted 11-05-2006 1:23 AM Rob has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 184 by Rob, posted 11-05-2006 1:42 AM ringo has replied

Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5849 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 182 of 302 (361756)
11-05-2006 1:35 AM
Reply to: Message 180 by Rob
11-05-2006 1:29 AM


Re: carefull ringo
delete
Edited by Rob, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 180 by Rob, posted 11-05-2006 1:29 AM Rob has not replied

iceage 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5915 days)
Posts: 1024
From: Pacific Northwest
Joined: 09-08-2003


Message 183 of 302 (361757)
11-05-2006 1:39 AM
Reply to: Message 163 by jar
11-04-2006 10:42 PM


Re: Mainly just a bigot
I am not necessarily a Dobson fan but if you are going to insult a man it should be backed up with some substance, don't you think!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 163 by jar, posted 11-04-2006 10:42 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 186 by jar, posted 11-05-2006 1:46 AM iceage has replied

Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5849 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 184 of 302 (361758)
11-05-2006 1:42 AM
Reply to: Message 181 by ringo
11-05-2006 1:34 AM


You're the one who claims that there are "laws of morality", though you're steadfastly avoiding discussing them. If I claim there are no "laws of morality", how could I use them to make inferences about hypocrisy?
Yeah the guys a sinner. No bones about it. Are you shocked? Outraged? Incredulous?
What do you want the White house to do? Declare Christianity dead? I mean, really?
The best part is, my evading your evasiveness is labeled evasive. You've twisted this so far out of control, you can't see straight Ringo. It's a sad state of affairs.
Your only hope is total denial.
"And that, if I might say so is what America is all about" Arthur Schlesinger
Why... that dirty rotton Haggard (perfect name isn't it? )
You know, if it wasn't for these evangelists, the world would be a great place!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 181 by ringo, posted 11-05-2006 1:34 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 187 by iceage, posted 11-05-2006 1:49 AM Rob has replied
 Message 188 by ringo, posted 11-05-2006 1:49 AM Rob has replied

Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5849 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 185 of 302 (361760)
11-05-2006 1:45 AM
Reply to: Message 179 by iceage
11-05-2006 1:23 AM


Always wise to be careful, just in case. Good advice Ice, (hey! that rhymes).
Matthew 12:24 But when the Pharisees heard this, they said, "It is only by Beelzebub, the prince of demons, that this fellow drives out demons." 25 Jesus knew their thoughts and said to them, "Every kingdom divided against itself will be ruined, and every city or household divided against itself will not stand... 31 And so I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. 32 Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 179 by iceage, posted 11-05-2006 1:23 AM iceage has not replied

jar
Member (Idle past 395 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 186 of 302 (361761)
11-05-2006 1:46 AM
Reply to: Message 183 by iceage
11-05-2006 1:39 AM


Re: Mainly just a bigot
Well, his organization, Focus on the Family is one of the biggest groups pushing the anti-gay legislation efforts. In addition it has expanded into every conceivable market to con the gullible out of money from printing companies to marketing home school material, all with a pro-ignorance bias. He is another bastion of hypocrisies.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 183 by iceage, posted 11-05-2006 1:39 AM iceage has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 189 by iceage, posted 11-05-2006 2:04 AM jar has replied

iceage 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5915 days)
Posts: 1024
From: Pacific Northwest
Joined: 09-08-2003


Message 187 of 302 (361762)
11-05-2006 1:49 AM
Reply to: Message 184 by Rob
11-05-2006 1:42 AM


Why... that dirty rotton Haggard
His is not dirty or rotton(sic) just fellow human - with apparently an unexamined issue or two.
Whoa you forgot your quote(s) on the last one so allow me....
"A man's ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hope of reward after death." (Albert Einstein)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 184 by Rob, posted 11-05-2006 1:42 AM Rob has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 190 by Rob, posted 11-05-2006 2:05 AM iceage has not replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 188 of 302 (361763)
11-05-2006 1:49 AM
Reply to: Message 184 by Rob
11-05-2006 1:42 AM


Rob writes:
... my evading your evasiveness is labeled evasive.
Well, you brought up the "laws of morality". Do you expect us to just swallow your assertion, hook, line and sinker? I asked a simple question: What are the "laws of morality" that you postulate?

Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC

This message is a reply to:
 Message 184 by Rob, posted 11-05-2006 1:42 AM Rob has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 191 by Rob, posted 11-05-2006 2:19 AM ringo has replied

iceage 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5915 days)
Posts: 1024
From: Pacific Northwest
Joined: 09-08-2003


Message 189 of 302 (361765)
11-05-2006 2:04 AM
Reply to: Message 186 by jar
11-05-2006 1:46 AM


Re: Mainly just a bigot
pushing the anti-gay legislation efforts
They are anti-gay so nothing hypocritical here.
to con the gullible out of money from printing companies to marketing home school material, all with a pro-ignorance bias.
They print what they believe in. They raise money, what is the issue. Readers Digest and National Geographic do the same to a different crowd.
He is another bastion of hypocrisies.
For nothing better to do during my daily commute I often listen to Moody broadcasting and other similar stations. If nothing else it keeps me sharp trying to identify the instances and inflictions of various logical fallacies However, Dobson seems like the least hypocritical, the least radical and most sensible.
To be a hypocrite requires difference between spouted belief and actions. It appears (i remain hesitant to judge not knowing the full details) that the subject person Haggard is a hypocrite.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 186 by jar, posted 11-05-2006 1:46 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 192 by jar, posted 11-05-2006 2:20 AM iceage has not replied

Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5849 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 190 of 302 (361766)
11-05-2006 2:05 AM
Reply to: Message 187 by iceage
11-05-2006 1:49 AM


"A man's ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hope of reward after death." (Albert Einstein)
Dare I be so bold... I cannot agree with Einstein on this. Perhaps he should stay in the science thread?
There is nothing at all that will restrain a man who refuses to be restrained. Even clear terms of hell he scoffs at. And mans sin, is the refusal, not so much the debauchery.
The debauchery has been paid for. The refusal is rooted in pure adulterated pride and insolence, and cannot be forgiven because the man will not allow it to be.
God doesn't condemn mankind for sin. He admits creating sin and took the responsibility for it. He paid dearly. Mankind condemns himself, by not responding to the one person who can save him. He has learned to love his sin. And he has every intention of keeping it.
You want a quote on pride? An allegory and metaphor, poetry and sculpture? A masterpiece of communication?
Job 41: 1 "Can you pull in the leviathan with a fishhook or tie down his tongue with a rope? 2 Can you put a cord through his nose or pierce his jaw with a hook? 3 Will he keep begging you for mercy? Will he speak to you with gentle words? 4 Will he make an agreement with you for you to take him as your slave for life? 5 Can you make a pet of him like a bird or put him on a leash for your girls? 6 Will traders barter for him? Will they divide him up among the merchants? 7 Can you fill his hide with harpoons or his head with fishing spears? 8 If you lay a hand on him, you will remember the struggle and never do it again! 9 Any hope of subduing him is false; the mere sight of him is overpowering. 10 No one is fierce enough to rouse him. Who then is able to stand against me?
11 Who has a claim against me that I must pay? Everything under heaven belongs to me. 12 "I will not fail to speak of his limbs, his strength and his graceful form. 13 Who can strip off his outer coat? Who would approach him with a bridle? 14 Who dares open the doors of his mouth, ringed about with his fearsome teeth? 15 His back has rows of shields tightly sealed together; 16 each is so close to the next that no air can pass between. 17 They are joined fast to one another; they cling together and cannot be parted. 18 His snorting throws out flashes of light; his eyes are like the rays of dawn. 19 Firebrands stream from his mouth; sparks of fire shoot out. 20 Smoke pours from his nostrils as from a boiling pot over a fire of reeds. 21 His breath sets coals ablaze, and flames dart from his mouth. 22 Strength resides in his neck; dismay goes before him. 23 The folds of his flesh are tightly joined; they are firm and immovable. 24 His chest is hard as rock, hard as a lower millstone. 25 When he rises up, the mighty are terrified; they retreat before his thrashing. 26 The sword that reaches him has no effect, nor does the spear or the dart or the javelin. 27 Iron he treats like straw and bronze like rotten wood. 28 Arrows do not make him flee; slingstones are like chaff to him. 29 A club seems to him but a piece of straw; he laughs at the rattling of the lance. 30 His undersides are jagged potsherds, leaving a trail in the mud like a threshing sledge. 31 He makes the depths churn like a boiling caldron and stirs up the sea like a pot of ointment. 32 Behind him he leaves a glistening wake; one would think the deep had white hair. 33 Nothing on earth is his equal-- a creature without fear. 34 He looks down on all that are haughty; he is king over all that are proud."

"God must know, better than anyone, how unfulfilling it is to be right, until it can be shared, with a community willing to accept it, and enjoy the glory of it."(Rob Lockett)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 187 by iceage, posted 11-05-2006 1:49 AM iceage has not replied

Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5849 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 191 of 302 (361770)
11-05-2006 2:19 AM
Reply to: Message 188 by ringo
11-05-2006 1:49 AM


Luke 10:25 On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. "Teacher," he asked, "what must I do to inherit eternal life?" 26 "What is written in the Law?" he replied. "How do you read it?" 27 He answered: "'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind'; and, 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'" 28 "You have answered correctly," Jesus replied. "Do this and you will live."
Love the truth Ringo, or reality, or Christ or whatever synonymous term you prefer, and make it first place in your life. And if you seek it with intent to find it, you will find it in the one place that it has always been. That's the way discovery is. We cannot find what we are looking for, if we prejudge what it must be.
That is the moral law.
The physical actions (manifestations of inward spiritual corruption) which we love to judge will follow suit relative to our total understanding of the truth. Haggard has obviously missed much of the whole (holy) nature of reality.
Only one man ever had the whole picture. And he extends his hand to us all.
You go ahead and condemn Haggard by your morals. If I do not forgive him, then I condemn myself. But I can only forgive someone of something I believe they have violated.
I hope you will respect my straight foreward answer. Ask and ye shall receive. It's not complicated.

"God must know, better than anyone, how unfulfilling it is to be right, until it can be shared, with a community willing to accept it, and enjoy the glory of it."(Rob Lockett)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 188 by ringo, posted 11-05-2006 1:49 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 193 by ringo, posted 11-05-2006 2:34 AM Rob has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 395 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 192 of 302 (361771)
11-05-2006 2:20 AM
Reply to: Message 189 by iceage
11-05-2006 2:04 AM


Re: Mainly just a bigot
To be a hypocrite requires difference between spouted belief and actions. It appears (i remain hesitant to judge not knowing the full details) that the subject person Haggard is a hypocrite.
Frankly, I think way too much is being made over Haggards supposed fall. I happen to think that if he bought meth for recreation, personal use, he was stupid, and should be charged with whatever penalty there is for meth possession, and since there seems to be no evidence other than allegations, probably thrown out of court. As to the charges of the gay relationship, I think he should step up if it is true, or deny it if false.
BUT...
I see absolutely no reason for him to step down from any of his positions or for his churches to sanction him.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 189 by iceage, posted 11-05-2006 2:04 AM iceage has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 195 by tsig, posted 11-05-2006 5:07 AM jar has replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 193 of 302 (361774)
11-05-2006 2:34 AM
Reply to: Message 191 by Rob
11-05-2006 2:19 AM


Rob writes:
Love the truth Ringo, or reality, or Christ or whatever synonymous term you prefer, and make it first place in your life....
That is the moral law.
How is that a "law", moral or otherwise?
All you've done is pass the buck on to "The TruthTM" or "RealityTM".
Morality is about what we do.
I thought you were talking about some "law" that determines whether what we do is moral or immoral. Instead, it seems that your "laws of morality" concept is just more inanity.
You go ahead and condemn Haggard by your morals.
You're still not paying attention. I didn't do that.

Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC

This message is a reply to:
 Message 191 by Rob, posted 11-05-2006 2:19 AM Rob has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 207 by Rob, posted 11-05-2006 12:00 PM ringo has replied

tsig
Member (Idle past 2909 days)
Posts: 738
From: USA
Joined: 04-09-2004


Message 194 of 302 (361784)
11-05-2006 4:59 AM
Reply to: Message 180 by Rob
11-05-2006 1:29 AM


Re: carefull ringo
Trust me... He's not suprised!
Luke 23: 32 Two other men, both criminals, were also led out with him to be executed. 33 When they came to the place called the Skull, there they crucified him, along with the criminals--one on his right, the other on his left. 34 Jesus said, "Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing." And they divided up his clothes by casting lots.
Well I really am.
So do you speak for god or are you god?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 180 by Rob, posted 11-05-2006 1:29 AM Rob has not replied

tsig
Member (Idle past 2909 days)
Posts: 738
From: USA
Joined: 04-09-2004


Message 195 of 302 (361785)
11-05-2006 5:07 AM
Reply to: Message 192 by jar
11-05-2006 2:20 AM


Re: Mainly just a bigot
other than the fact that he had been preaching the exact opposite of what he had been doing?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 192 by jar, posted 11-05-2006 2:20 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 206 by jar, posted 11-05-2006 11:35 AM tsig has replied

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