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Author | Topic: Omniscience, Omnipotence, the Fall & Logical Contradictions. | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
iceage  Suspended Member (Idle past 5943 days) Posts: 1024 From: Pacific Northwest Joined: |
ibiblenano writes: You don't seem to understand something. You don't chose X because God knows you will chose X. God knows you will chose X because you will chose X. If your god already knows just what choices we are going to make then why not just push the fast forward button and get it all over with? Why all the pomp and ceremony?
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DominionSeraph Member (Idle past 4782 days) Posts: 365 From: on High Joined: |
iBibleNano writes: 1. God is omniscient and knows everything before it happens.2. A person has many choices to chose from but God knows what choice he will chose. 3. Considering that he COULD have chosen any one of those, even though God knew he would chose the one he did, and he did, that means he has free will. If you can't change what will happen tomorrow any more than you can change what happened yesterday, how are you free?
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Christian7 Member (Idle past 276 days) Posts: 628 From: n/a Joined: |
If your god already knows just what choices we are going to make then why not just push the fast forward button and get it all over with? Why all the pomp and ceremony? Why do people ask how old their children are on their birthday? Don't they know already? I mean think about it. What's the point? Point is: God wants us to have the experience of chosing him or chosing against him, and afterwords he wants us to have the experience of our consequences. It's as simple as that. Edited by iBibleNano, : No reason given.
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Christian7 Member (Idle past 276 days) Posts: 628 From: n/a Joined: |
If you can't change what will happen tomorrow any more than you can change what happened yesterday, how are you free? Because once again, as I have stated, we do not know our own future. There is nothing to change. If we knew our future, then we would have something to change, and if we couldn't change it, then you would have an argument. However: In the bible, there is a story where Jesus tells Peter that he is going to deny him three times, and Peter does it anyway. Is this because Peter has no free will? Absolutley not. Peter simply didn't have the will power to change it. There is a difference between free will and will power. Will power is how much effort you exert into changing something. Free will is simply the ability to exert will power. You can exert how ever much you like with enough effort.
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mark24 Member (Idle past 5223 days) Posts: 3857 From: UK Joined: |
iBiblenano,
3. Considering that he COULD have chosen any one of those, even though God knew he would chose the one he did, and he did, that means he has free will. He couldn't have chosen any, the outcome was known in advance. Mark There are 10 kinds of people in this world; those that understand binary, & those that don't
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Legend Member (Idle past 5034 days) Posts: 1226 From: Wales, UK Joined: |
Point is: God wants us to have the experience of chosing him or chosing against him, and afterwords he wants us to have the experience of our consequences. It's as simple as that. So, although God knows that I will die an atheist and burn in hell -or whatever- he still went ahead and created me and allows me to live my wretched life until it's time to pay the consequences of my choices. May I ask what is the motive behind this approach ? Why God still creates those of us who will suffer the consequences ? "In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the bug and some days you'll be the windscreen."
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jar Member (Idle past 422 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
There is a difference between free will and will power. Will power is how much effort you exert into changing something. Free will is simply the ability to exert will power. You can exert how ever much you like with enough effort. So with sufficient willpower you can change things. That means that it is possible for Man to be more powerful than GOD. Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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iceage  Suspended Member (Idle past 5943 days) Posts: 1024 From: Pacific Northwest Joined: |
If your god already knows just what choices we are going to make then why not just push the fast forward button and get it all over with? Why all the pomp and ceremony? Why do people ask how old their children are on their birthday? Don't they know already? I mean think about it. What's the point? Glancing recocheting non-sequiqtur.
Point is: God wants us to have the experience of chosing him or chosing against him, and afterwords he wants us to have the experience of our consequences. It's as simple as that. Do you have biblical references substantiating this claim...
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Christian7 Member (Idle past 276 days) Posts: 628 From: n/a Joined: |
He couldn't have chosen any, the outcome was known in advance. What you have to understand is that, he could of, but because he didn't, it produced the effect of God knowing in advance that he did what he did. So what you have hear is an effect in the past being produced by a cause in the future. Well actually, to be more accurate: The outcome wasn't known anywhere in the time line. It was known outside of time. Haven't you read iano's posts? So far I have been arguing while accepting the premise that God was at a particular point in the time line having knowledge of our future choices, but I did it only for the sake of getting a point accross. Now allow me to clarify the concept of God. God exists outside of time. At certian instances God intervened and appeared to work from the inside. But God's forknowledge is something that is obtained outside of time. In fact, even saying that God is outside of time is an understatement and a mockery of God. We simply can't explain the infinite nature of God, but that was my best shot. So whether God is inside or outside of time, it is still logically valid to state that God has forknowledge of our choice which are made of free will.
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Christian7 Member (Idle past 276 days) Posts: 628 From: n/a Joined: |
So, although God knows that I will die an atheist and burn in hell -or whatever- he still went ahead and created me and allows me to live my wretched life until it's time to pay the consequences of my choices. May I ask what is the motive behind this approach ? Why God still creates those of us who will suffer the consequences It's not God's fault you are going to hell. It's your own damn fault. Think about it, you can drop on your knees right now and pleed for forgiveness of your sins while accepting Jesus Christ into your heart as your personal lord and savior. You could have done that at anytime in your life, and you can do it now. But I doubt you will do it in the future. So you better make up your mind. Oh that's right. Your mind is already made up. I don't think the holy spirit is working on your heart anymore.
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Christian7 Member (Idle past 276 days) Posts: 628 From: n/a Joined: |
So with sufficient willpower you can change things. That means that it is possible for Man to be more powerful than GOD. You can change things that are changable. There is no way on earth that human will power can overcome God.
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Christian7 Member (Idle past 276 days) Posts: 628 From: n/a Joined: |
Oops. The internet didn't let me post (or so it seemed) so I hit the back button, then forward, and submitted it again. Then I found out there was two of the same post. So I edited this one and put this message here. I request that an admin remove it.
Edited by iBibleNano, : No reason given. Edited by iBibleNano, : No reason given.
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jar Member (Idle past 422 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Did you say:
There is a difference between free will and will power. Will power is how much effort you exert into changing something. Free will is simply the ability to exert will power. You can exert how ever much you like with enough effort. Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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Christian7 Member (Idle past 276 days) Posts: 628 From: n/a Joined: |
Yes, but that in no ways implies that our will power is ever sufficient to change that which we cannot change. We can exert however much we like , with enough effort, but it is within the restrictions of choice.
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
iBibleNano writes: I don't think the holy spirit is working on your heart anymore. If God already knows who is damned, why would the Holy Spirit waste time working in their hearts? Edited by Ringo, : Fixed quote. Edited by Ringo, : Fixed spelling. Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation. Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC
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