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Author Topic:   Omniscience, Omnipotence, the Fall & Logical Contradictions.
iceage 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5914 days)
Posts: 1024
From: Pacific Northwest
Joined: 09-08-2003


Message 151 of 354 (361965)
11-05-2006 5:25 PM
Reply to: Message 150 by Christian7
11-05-2006 5:18 PM


Re: the illusion of free will
ibiblenano writes:
You don't seem to understand something. You don't chose X because God knows you will chose X. God knows you will chose X because you will chose X.
If your god already knows just what choices we are going to make then why not just push the fast forward button and get it all over with?
Why all the pomp and ceremony?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 150 by Christian7, posted 11-05-2006 5:18 PM Christian7 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 153 by Christian7, posted 11-06-2006 6:14 AM iceage has replied

  
DominionSeraph
Member (Idle past 4754 days)
Posts: 365
From: on High
Joined: 01-26-2005


Message 152 of 354 (362052)
11-06-2006 12:32 AM
Reply to: Message 144 by Christian7
11-05-2006 10:59 AM


iBibleNano writes:
1. God is omniscient and knows everything before it happens.
2. A person has many choices to chose from but God knows what choice he will chose.
3. Considering that he COULD have chosen any one of those, even though God knew he would chose the one he did, and he did, that means he has free will.
If you can't change what will happen tomorrow any more than you can change what happened yesterday, how are you free?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 144 by Christian7, posted 11-05-2006 10:59 AM Christian7 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 154 by Christian7, posted 11-06-2006 6:17 AM DominionSeraph has replied

  
Christian7
Member (Idle past 248 days)
Posts: 628
From: n/a
Joined: 01-19-2004


Message 153 of 354 (362084)
11-06-2006 6:14 AM
Reply to: Message 151 by iceage
11-05-2006 5:25 PM


Re: the illusion of free will
If your god already knows just what choices we are going to make then why not just push the fast forward button and get it all over with?
Why all the pomp and ceremony?
Why do people ask how old their children are on their birthday? Don't they know already? I mean think about it. What's the point?
Point is: God wants us to have the experience of chosing him or chosing against him, and afterwords he wants us to have the experience of our consequences. It's as simple as that.
Edited by iBibleNano, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 151 by iceage, posted 11-05-2006 5:25 PM iceage has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 156 by Legend, posted 11-06-2006 11:30 AM Christian7 has replied
 Message 158 by iceage, posted 11-06-2006 12:27 PM Christian7 has not replied
 Message 169 by iceage, posted 11-06-2006 6:09 PM Christian7 has not replied

  
Christian7
Member (Idle past 248 days)
Posts: 628
From: n/a
Joined: 01-19-2004


Message 154 of 354 (362085)
11-06-2006 6:17 AM
Reply to: Message 152 by DominionSeraph
11-06-2006 12:32 AM


If you can't change what will happen tomorrow any more than you can change what happened yesterday, how are you free?
Because once again, as I have stated, we do not know our own future. There is nothing to change. If we knew our future, then we would have something to change, and if we couldn't change it, then you would have an argument.
However:
In the bible, there is a story where Jesus tells Peter that he is going to deny him three times, and Peter does it anyway. Is this because Peter has no free will? Absolutley not. Peter simply didn't have the will power to change it. There is a difference between free will and will power. Will power is how much effort you exert into changing something. Free will is simply the ability to exert will power. You can exert how ever much you like with enough effort.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 152 by DominionSeraph, posted 11-06-2006 12:32 AM DominionSeraph has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 157 by jar, posted 11-06-2006 12:27 PM Christian7 has replied
 Message 209 by DominionSeraph, posted 11-07-2006 10:09 PM Christian7 has not replied

  
mark24
Member (Idle past 5195 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


Message 155 of 354 (362114)
11-06-2006 8:51 AM
Reply to: Message 144 by Christian7
11-05-2006 10:59 AM


Re: God: Just or Unjust?
iBiblenano,
3. Considering that he COULD have chosen any one of those, even though God knew he would chose the one he did, and he did, that means he has free will.
He couldn't have chosen any, the outcome was known in advance.
Mark

There are 10 kinds of people in this world; those that understand binary, & those that don't

This message is a reply to:
 Message 144 by Christian7, posted 11-05-2006 10:59 AM Christian7 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 159 by Christian7, posted 11-06-2006 4:21 PM mark24 has replied

  
Legend
Member (Idle past 5006 days)
Posts: 1226
From: Wales, UK
Joined: 05-07-2004


Message 156 of 354 (362134)
11-06-2006 11:30 AM
Reply to: Message 153 by Christian7
11-06-2006 6:14 AM


Re: the illusion of free will
Point is: God wants us to have the experience of chosing him or chosing against him, and afterwords he wants us to have the experience of our consequences. It's as simple as that.
So, although God knows that I will die an atheist and burn in hell -or whatever- he still went ahead and created me and allows me to live my wretched life until it's time to pay the consequences of my choices.
May I ask what is the motive behind this approach ? Why God still creates those of us who will suffer the consequences ?

"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the bug and some days you'll be the windscreen."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 153 by Christian7, posted 11-06-2006 6:14 AM Christian7 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 160 by Christian7, posted 11-06-2006 4:24 PM Legend has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 157 of 354 (362147)
11-06-2006 12:27 PM
Reply to: Message 154 by Christian7
11-06-2006 6:17 AM


Let's examine that further.
There is a difference between free will and will power. Will power is how much effort you exert into changing something. Free will is simply the ability to exert will power. You can exert how ever much you like with enough effort.
So with sufficient willpower you can change things.
That means that it is possible for Man to be more powerful than GOD.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 154 by Christian7, posted 11-06-2006 6:17 AM Christian7 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 161 by Christian7, posted 11-06-2006 4:27 PM jar has replied
 Message 162 by Christian7, posted 11-06-2006 4:27 PM jar has not replied

  
iceage 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5914 days)
Posts: 1024
From: Pacific Northwest
Joined: 09-08-2003


Message 158 of 354 (362148)
11-06-2006 12:27 PM
Reply to: Message 153 by Christian7
11-06-2006 6:14 AM


Re: the illusion of free will
If your god already knows just what choices we are going to make then why not just push the fast forward button and get it all over with?
Why all the pomp and ceremony?
Why do people ask how old their children are on their birthday? Don't they know already? I mean think about it. What's the point?
Glancing recocheting non-sequiqtur.
Point is: God wants us to have the experience of chosing him or chosing against him, and afterwords he wants us to have the experience of our consequences. It's as simple as that.
Do you have biblical references substantiating this claim...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 153 by Christian7, posted 11-06-2006 6:14 AM Christian7 has not replied

  
Christian7
Member (Idle past 248 days)
Posts: 628
From: n/a
Joined: 01-19-2004


Message 159 of 354 (362184)
11-06-2006 4:21 PM
Reply to: Message 155 by mark24
11-06-2006 8:51 AM


Re: God: Just or Unjust?
He couldn't have chosen any, the outcome was known in advance.
What you have to understand is that, he could of, but because he didn't, it produced the effect of God knowing in advance that he did what he did. So what you have hear is an effect in the past being produced by a cause in the future.
Well actually, to be more accurate:
The outcome wasn't known anywhere in the time line. It was known outside of time. Haven't you read iano's posts?
So far I have been arguing while accepting the premise that God was at a particular point in the time line having knowledge of our future choices, but I did it only for the sake of getting a point accross. Now allow me to clarify the concept of God. God exists outside of time. At certian instances God intervened and appeared to work from the inside. But God's forknowledge is something that is obtained outside of time.
In fact, even saying that God is outside of time is an understatement and a mockery of God. We simply can't explain the infinite nature of God, but that was my best shot.
So whether God is inside or outside of time, it is still logically valid to state that God has forknowledge of our choice which are made of free will.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 155 by mark24, posted 11-06-2006 8:51 AM mark24 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 168 by mark24, posted 11-06-2006 5:53 PM Christian7 has replied

  
Christian7
Member (Idle past 248 days)
Posts: 628
From: n/a
Joined: 01-19-2004


Message 160 of 354 (362185)
11-06-2006 4:24 PM
Reply to: Message 156 by Legend
11-06-2006 11:30 AM


Re: the illusion of free will
So, although God knows that I will die an atheist and burn in hell -or whatever- he still went ahead and created me and allows me to live my wretched life until it's time to pay the consequences of my choices.
May I ask what is the motive behind this approach ? Why God still creates those of us who will suffer the consequences
It's not God's fault you are going to hell. It's your own damn fault. Think about it, you can drop on your knees right now and pleed for forgiveness of your sins while accepting Jesus Christ into your heart as your personal lord and savior. You could have done that at anytime in your life, and you can do it now. But I doubt you will do it in the future. So you better make up your mind. Oh that's right. Your mind is already made up. I don't think the holy spirit is working on your heart anymore.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 156 by Legend, posted 11-06-2006 11:30 AM Legend has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 165 by ringo, posted 11-06-2006 5:11 PM Christian7 has not replied
 Message 167 by Legend, posted 11-06-2006 5:22 PM Christian7 has replied

  
Christian7
Member (Idle past 248 days)
Posts: 628
From: n/a
Joined: 01-19-2004


Message 161 of 354 (362186)
11-06-2006 4:27 PM
Reply to: Message 157 by jar
11-06-2006 12:27 PM


Re: Let's examine that further.
So with sufficient willpower you can change things.
That means that it is possible for Man to be more powerful than GOD.
You can change things that are changable. There is no way on earth that human will power can overcome God.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 157 by jar, posted 11-06-2006 12:27 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 163 by jar, posted 11-06-2006 4:32 PM Christian7 has replied

  
Christian7
Member (Idle past 248 days)
Posts: 628
From: n/a
Joined: 01-19-2004


Message 162 of 354 (362187)
11-06-2006 4:27 PM
Reply to: Message 157 by jar
11-06-2006 12:27 PM


Re: Let's examine that further.
Oops. The internet didn't let me post (or so it seemed) so I hit the back button, then forward, and submitted it again. Then I found out there was two of the same post. So I edited this one and put this message here. I request that an admin remove it.
Edited by iBibleNano, : No reason given.
Edited by iBibleNano, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 157 by jar, posted 11-06-2006 12:27 PM jar has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 163 of 354 (362188)
11-06-2006 4:32 PM
Reply to: Message 161 by Christian7
11-06-2006 4:27 PM


Re: Let's examine that further.
Did you say:
There is a difference between free will and will power. Will power is how much effort you exert into changing something. Free will is simply the ability to exert will power. You can exert how ever much you like with enough effort.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 161 by Christian7, posted 11-06-2006 4:27 PM Christian7 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 164 by Christian7, posted 11-06-2006 5:07 PM jar has replied

  
Christian7
Member (Idle past 248 days)
Posts: 628
From: n/a
Joined: 01-19-2004


Message 164 of 354 (362197)
11-06-2006 5:07 PM
Reply to: Message 163 by jar
11-06-2006 4:32 PM


Re: Let's examine that further.
Yes, but that in no ways implies that our will power is ever sufficient to change that which we cannot change. We can exert however much we like , with enough effort, but it is within the restrictions of choice.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 163 by jar, posted 11-06-2006 4:32 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 166 by jar, posted 11-06-2006 5:22 PM Christian7 has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 165 of 354 (362198)
11-06-2006 5:11 PM
Reply to: Message 160 by Christian7
11-06-2006 4:24 PM


Re: the illusion of free will
iBibleNano writes:
I don't think the holy spirit is working on your heart anymore.
If God already knows who is damned, why would the Holy Spirit waste time working in their hearts?
Edited by Ringo, : Fixed quote.
Edited by Ringo, : Fixed spelling.

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This message is a reply to:
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